D&D 5E rogue-bladesinger?

[auburn2]

Dashing through the room cost the PCs a 3rd level slot from the Cleric, 39 HP from the Rogue, a use of Bladesong, and a shield spell (to date). Unless the Bladesinger can stop the Orc from executing the (failed one death save already) Rogue before the Orcs have a turn (they go next), its also going to cost them a diamond and ANOTHER 3rd level slot on the Revivify for the Rogue (plus some HD and potions or more slots to heal the Rogue) plus the Orogs (who go first) might also drop the Spirit guardians (as they're likely to now attack the Cleric).

I dashed through the room because you said the orcs were 20' away from the parrty in a 40x40 room. Not that the party was in the hallway. That is fundamentally different.

I answered above if they are in a hallway.

 

[auburn2]

You realise you're literally requiring the Wizard to be up the front, alone, opening doors, wasting his spells on defence, and dodging.


My argument is the Wizard would be a lot better utilised, being a Wizard.

That is the whole idea .... and it works.

As for your argument about "being a wizard" every spell being discussed is a wizard spell, and there is an entire school of wizardry in the PHB that focuses on abjurations and another that focuses on illusions. Maybe your group doesn't use them and has very one-dimensional wizards, but those spells are there for wizards to use and they are balanced by the developers through substantial playtesting.

 

[auburn2]

Class role appears to be very important to you. It's not to me, and I suspect it's also not to @auburn2. If I'm in a party that has a character that can occasionally make themselves nigh-unhittable, I'm going to leverage it by striving, on those occasions, to ensure that the enemy's only valid target is that character. Whether that's by using terrain, hiding, full cover, social engineering, or simply putting the character far in front (supported from a distance by long-range characters) the nigh-unhittable character is a resource for me to leverage to engage the enemy while limiting their ability to fight back.

It doesn't matter to me if that character is a fighter or a wizard--what matters is their effective HP total (as modified by their AC and resistance to being critically hit) and their ability to survive other threats (like elemental damage and debuffs). A Bladesinger who is using their defensive capabilities happens to be pretty good at those categories. And if I don't think I'm going to be able to make the Bladesinger the only valid (or at least, most appealing) target in a particular encounter (e.g. wide-open space, highly mobile enemies), then I'll employ a different strategy instead, and use the Bladesinger in a different role.

Doors are a natural chokepoint, however, which are ideal for limiting the enemy's melee options. Sure, they might choose not to attack the Bladesinger if the Bladesinger can't be hit, but with the Bladesinger in front blocking the doorway the melee enemies can't hit anyone else either. Maybe the enemy opts to use less-effective ranged attacks against the other PCs (who have cover from the Bladesinger). If so, that's still better for the party than a melee brawl, especially with the example party where the PCs have dominant ranged capability.

So yes, I'm absolutely going to put the Bladesinger up front when blindly breaching a door of a enemy structure. Of the four available characters, they are the most survivable option, and I don't dare have the rest of the party be in AoE range of the point character. Sure, the Bladesinger is taking a huge risk, particularly if there are multiple enemy spellcaster behind the door, but against those spellcasters it would be even worse to have the whole party standing in a group by the door, ready to be taken out by AoE.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say! THANK YOU!

 

[Flamestrike]

If the PCs are in "typical formation" means they are all behind the bladesinger, not all in the room like you said. That is fundamentally different from your initial set up. They are behind the bladesinger with 5 foot spacing - bladesinger, cleric, rogue, ranger. So ranger is 30 feet down the hall from the door. Bladesinger opens the door sees the Orcs causes initiative,

None of that matters, as Orcs move 60' (30' extra with a bonus action thanks to the aggressive trait). They start Combat loosely spaced in the the middle of the 40' wide room, 20' from the doorway

You open the door from the 10' wide hallway [triggering combat], and then disengage + BS and run to other side of the room, opening the door that leads further into the dungeon.

Your party are evenly spaced up behind where you were, in the 10' hallway.

They (the Orogs) move to the Rogue (one of them provoking an AoO from the Cleric, who hits, dealing 10 damage), and swing at him 4 times, followed by a single Orc that nails the Rouge. The Ranger draws his sword and Hunter marks attacks twice, hitting an Orog each time, dealing 22 damage, and the Cleric hems them in with Spirit guardians.

I made a mistake last time - Spirit guardians hasnt damaged anything yet as the Orcs haven't started a turn in it yet, so they dont have to make saves yet.

Your companions are are red, you are blue, and the Orcs are green:

the orcs and orogs get their over the top extremely high rolls,

The Orcs combined made 8 attacks rolls (5 of them against an AC 15 and 3 vs AC 19), hitting with 5 of them (one shielded) with damage largely being averaged. 4 hits from 8 attacks in total. They also attempted 3 saves, only passing 1 (but really dont have to make those saves yet, as they havent yet started a turn inside Spirit Guardians).

The party combined (Ranger and Cleric) made 3 attacks vs AC 18, hitting with all 3.

Everyone is rolling reasonably well, with damage rolls being around average.

Go ahead it is your turn.

I did the same thing, and we're in the same position.

The Cleric has pushed back to catch all the Orcs in the hallway in Spirit Guardians. The Ranger hems them in on the other side. The Rogue is down (and bleeding) in the middle of the two, with an Orc about to cut off his head.

You stand at the doorway some 50' from the Cleric, with 3 Orcs blocking your way back to them, and the Cleric screaming for you to get back and help.

It's your turn.

 

[Flamestrike]

Total party resources used so far (1 round of combat):

• 1 x 3rd level slot (spirit guardians)
• 2 x 1st level slots (shield and hunters mark)
• 1 x bladesong
• 39 Hit points lost

 

[auburn2]

None of that matters, as Orcs move 60' (30' extra with a bonus action thanks to the aggressive trait). They start Combat loosely spaced in the the middle of the 40' wide room, 20' from the doorway

You have my positon wrong in your diagram. At the end of my turn I am in the hallway with the rest of the party. I get to choose where I am let's try this again, as I posted above:

"Bladesinger opens the door sees the Orcs causes initiative, the orcs and orogs get their over the top extremely high rolls, the bladesinger backs up into the hallway just beyond the threshold of the door, goes into bladesong and takes dodge action."

You have me, the blue diamond, at the wrong door in your diagram. I am just outside the door I opened. It looks like what is below (not sure where the orcs are to start but the blue and red are me and my party after the bladesingers turn). Now try your turn.

As for the high rolls. There is a Ranger with a +3 (or more) initiative, a Rogue with a +3 (or more) initiative, and a cleric with a +1 initiative. You made 8 intiative rolls with a +1 and beat all 3 of those characters all 8 times. Yes that is really high rolls. It is really high if you just rolled for the orcs and orogs and beat them. You also hit the Rogue 4 times on 5 attacks against him where you needed a 9 on 4 and a 10 on 1, the chance of 3 or more hits by the Orogs and 1 by the orc is 21%. So yes it is very good, not impossible but very good. As for the bladesinger the chance you hit her once on three attempts needing a 14, that part is about what it should be.

That doesn't matter though because you did not even have the positioning right so try your move again.

 

[Flamestrike]

You have my positon wrong in your diagram. At the end of my turn I am in the hallway with the rest of the party. I get to choose where I am let's try this again, as I posted above:

"Bladesinger opens the door sees the Orcs causes initiative, the bladesinger backs up into the hallway just beyond the threshold of the door, goes into bladesong and takes dodge action."

Ah OK. You're now standing in the 10' wide hallway, with 5' of space between you and the Cleric.

After you turn an Orc goes to move past you. Do you attempt an Opportunity attack with your Sentinel feat as it moves past?

 

[Flamestrike]

You made 8 intiative rolls

No I made a group roll for the monsters.

Stop whining, you got to go first!

 

[auburn2]

No I made a group roll for the monsters.

Stop whining, you got to go first!

Of course you did!

Again - you did not do my move right. I posted a new diagram for you, try looking at it.

Stop whining and make your first move, one that is actually representative of what I said I did above.

 

[Flamestrike]

Again - you did not do my move right. I posted a new diagram for you, try looking at it.

See post above. You're a Medium creature in a 10' wide hallway (as stated multiple times, and shown in the above diagram). The Orcs and Orogs can move past you. They can use Bonus action aggressive trait to move up to 30' to you, then move normally a further 30' into the hallway, all the way up to the Ranger.

And no more sudden shifting of position or retconning the whole party.

Do you want to make an AoO as the first Orc attempts to move past you with your Sentinel feat?

Yes or No?