D&D 5E rogue-bladesinger?

[Flamestrike]

So basically they did not go past me and kill the rest of the party like you said they would all the way back in the begining of this whole thread. We took the room with no casualties.

Yay for you! For all the good it does you.

Its your turn 2. Did you use shield to stop the javelin, and what do you do on your turn?

 

[Flamestrike]

Based on what you just said here, if I opened with fireball like you wanted the surviving Orogs and the probable one orc that survived would have done the exact same thing.

You Fireball. 30 damage or more kills the Orcs regardless of saves. Then Bladesong. Then advance. Then threaten the two badly wounded Orog survivors with your AC 19 and your Sentinel feat and shield spell (or simply block their escape into room 2)

If they attack you, shield it. Orog 1 runs away, you stop him with sentinel. If Orog 2 runs away and makes it into the next room alerting encounter 2?

Presuming he cant be reached by either of your archers, your party advance to you, with the archers taking the ready (attack) action or finishing off the wounded Orog, and the cleric casting bless on the three of you.

You're basically ready for encounter 2 now regardless of him getting away with ready actions, you in bladesong and the party blessed.

 

[Flamestrike]

The moral of the story is, if you're dodging, you are not presenting a threat. There is no 'draw agro' there - you're not only extremely hard to hit via dodge, you're also not acutally doing anything offensively to make you a threat.

A Barbarian (for example) using reckless attack draws attacks because he hits like a truck, and everyone gets advantage to hit him.

A Dodging blade-singer does not draw attacks because his AC is too high, and he's not actually doing anything else offensively.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

A prime example of this is the Baldar's Gate 3 early access. The AI is currently rather simplistic, and enemies simply target whoever is easiest to hit (most carry bows). So, if you want enemies to ignore you, have a high AC (Mirror Image is great for this because of the way it is implemented). If you want to draw fire, have a low AC, but lots of hp and resistances.

 

[Flamestrike]

If you have a high AC and are near impossible to hit, why bother wasting actions attacking you, and if you're not actually doing anything other than dodging... why bother attacking you?

 

[auburn2]

You Fireball. 30 damage or more kills the Orcs regardless of saves. Then Bladesong. Then advance. Then threaten the two badly wounded Orog survivors with your AC 19 and your Sentinel feat and shield spell (or simply block their escape into room 2)

If they attack you, shield it. Orog 1 runs away, you stop him with sentinel. If Orog 2 runs away and makes it into the next room alerting encounter 2?

Presuming he cant be reached by either of your archers, your party advance to you, with the archers taking the ready (attack) action or finishing off the wounded Orog, and the cleric casting bless on the three of you.

You're basically ready for encounter 2 now regardless of him getting away with ready actions, you in bladesong and the party blessed.

This is such BS and you know it. Even with good rolls where I kill all four orcs (which is odd since our rolls are terrible until now) and if I advance and threaten both orogs, I only get one OA and 1 orog still gets away EVERY SINGLE TIME. There is no way at all to keep him, even if it is only 1, from leaving and raising the alarm. I fireball, get lucky and kill every single orc, the two orogs flee. I get an OA on one of them and get lucky again and hit so he can't move (and by the way the only reason I can stop this one is because I took the "useless" sentinel feat). Even if I do both of those things and get great rolls on the fireball, and good rolls on the OA, one Orog still escapes through the other door to raise the alarm. With the other party members all the way back in the hall 50+ feet away from the door they can't get to him. The only way it doesn't happen is if they decide not to flee if they are fireballed, and that is really what would have happened if I played this like you wanted me to play this, isn't it?

Bottom line here is you want your players to do what you want them to do and you will completely eliminate player agency to force that to happen. You want the fireball and so instead of playing the enemy from a mindset or basic strategy or plan you play them to punish the player if they don't do exactly what you want in the first round. If the enemies base strategy is to flee and raise the alarm as soon as they see any intruders, fine but that is not the mindset and it is not how you played it to start and it makes no sense that they would shift the strategy now in round 1 based on what was presented to them. If they fought for a round or two and got nowhere, and were getting annihilated (as they will likely) absolutely then it would make total sense to retreat and regroup, but not on seeing someone open a door.

You were all gung-ho on running into battle and downing the rogue in round 1 when they saw all four party members, and they were even going to go through the door and out into the hall to do it. Now that there is a lone elf in the doorway all 6 are all of a sudden going to flee? Not one or two to raise the alarm, but all six!

 

[auburn2]

If you have a high AC and are near impossible to hit, why bother wasting actions attacking you, and if you're not actually doing anything other than dodging... why bother attacking you?

Because I don't have a sign around my neck saying I have a high AC. At this point I am one elf standing in a doorway with a human behind her that some of them can see.

 

[auburn2]

The moral of the story is, if you're dodging, you are not presenting a threat. There is no 'draw agro' there - you're not only extremely hard to hit via dodge, you're also not acutally doing anything offensively to make you a threat.

"Not a threat" yet all 6 enemy flee from battle without even trying.

In case you missed we took the room, we won the fight and we used less resources than otherwise would have. And that was the whole point of this discussion, the thread where they are now raising the alarm is nothing but a misdirection and way off what this topic was about.

Let's get back to the original point - your whole point in this entire thread is that the bladesinger is not helping the party in combat if she takes dodge. That she should never do it and the enemy will ignore her and it will hurt the party. Having numerous options with other rooms and a horde of orcs on the other side of a door overly complicates things and makes this a role play and not a combat encounter and as I pointed out earlier it is role play with no player agency since the alarm is raised no matter what I do.

How about if this is a 40x40 barracks room with no exit other than the "normal door" she is standing in? That makes it a lot simpler, we are just looking at the fight itself, which is what this discussion is really about.

My bladeisnger opens the door on the barrakcs there are 4 orcs and 2 orogs in it and no other exits. She goes into bladesong and takes dodge. Your turn, what do they do.

 

[auburn2]

The moral of the story is, if you're dodging, you are not presenting a threat. There is no 'draw agro' there - you're not only extremely hard to hit via dodge, you're also not acutally doing anything offensively to make you a threat.

The moral of the story is the enemy can't effectively get to any other party member, you know it, you have been exposed and that is why they are all running away.

Like I said above it is a 40x40 barracks with a normal door and no other exit .... that scenario really speaks to the fundamental question we have here, whether the bladesinger is ever helping the party by using dodge and guarding a choke point. She opens the door on a barracks with no other exit, 2 Orogs and 6 Orcs, goes into bladesong and takes dodge action.

Or do you not want to play that game?

Maybe you have me in your game as a player, so every single room in every single dungeon has another exit with a horde of orcs on the other side of it. That way you can force me to play like you want to tell me to play!

At some point, ANY POINT are you going to be willing to say it works?

 

[auburn2]

A prime example of this is the Baldar's Gate 3 early access. The AI is currently rather simplistic, and enemies simply target whoever is easiest to hit (most carry bows). So, if you want enemies to ignore you, have a high AC (Mirror Image is great for this because of the way it is implemented). If you want to draw fire, have a low AC, but lots of hp and resistances.

I agree, a few things though.

First the enemy never flee in BG3 because of AC (at least that I have found). And you can certainly draw fire onto a high-AC character by keeping other characters back out of the battle and then bringing them in at the opportune time. What I am talking about here works extremely well in BG3. Although to be fair the enemy is overly stupid in that game and the battles are all way to easy.

Second I have no problem with enemies seeking out and TRYING to attack softer characters if they can, as a matter of fact they should but the party should also make that difficult to do. It is kind of cheesy in round 1 to avoid a high AC character solely because of AC when they don't know what they are up against, but I have no real problem other than that.

Circling back to the initial discussion point though - It was said that the bladesinger is not survivable in the front of the party where she can get attacked by multiple enemies in melee, that as a wizard she won't survive up there toe to toe with the enemey because of the low hps. Well, if she is not going to get attacked based on her AC alone .... then I think I can rest my case and it is clear she is survivable in melee.

 

[Maxperson]

You're a Wizard with a solid bonus action defensive ability. Being in melee is the last place you want to be.

Those slots used on Shield at low levels would be far better spent on Sleep or similar spells.

I think what you're missing is that the game is not about DPR, roleplaying, optimization, or anything else. There are lots of right ways to play and fun is at the top of the list. I've played standard wizards who stand back and just use spells for more than 30 years. I'm currently playing a Bladesinger and going into to the front lines because it's fun to use a sword as a wizard AND be able to cast spells, my choice. It doesn't matter if Sleep is better than a Shield spell if Sleep is less fun. 5e is the most forgiving edition, so optimization is a waste of time if you aren't into that sort of thing.

 

[Flamestrike]

The moral of the story is the enemy can't effectively get to any other party member, you know it, you have been exposed and that is why they are all running away.

They haven't run away! You still have to deal with them, only now they have alerted the whole dungeon, and reinforced!

 

[Flamestrike]

This is such BS and you know it. Even with good rolls where I kill all four orcs (which is odd since our rolls are terrible until now) and if I advance and threaten both orogs, I only get one OA and 1 orog still gets away EVERY SINGLE TIME. There is no way at all to keep him, even if it is only 1, from leaving and raising the alarm.

One Orog gets pinned (Sentinel). The other one then dashes away into the other room.

Next up is the Ranger who moves 35' into the room where he positions himself to be able to see the survivor through the 10' doorway (cover is irrelevant as he's a sharpshooter), Hunters Marks it, shoots twice, and as it's already badly wounded, likely killing it.

The remaining Orog threatening you, can be dealt with by the Rogue who goes next, shooting twice with his hand crossbow and sneak attack.

The Cleric can then.. I don't know; heal you or cast bless or whatever.

Round 1 is now over and all enemies in encounter are 1 dead, with the party buffed and having taken 0 damage in return. Even IF the Orog that fled alerted encounter 2, the party is in bladesong, with bless and hunters mark active, at full HP, and ready for it.

Bottom line here is you want your players to do what you want them to do and you will completely eliminate player agency to force that to happen.

Utter and total bulldust! You can do what ever you want to do, and the enemies will react accordingly.

I did nothing to 'eliminate your agency' there. You're free to dance around in the hallway, race across the room to the other door or do whatever the hell you want.

 

[Flamestrike]

"Not a threat" yet all 6 enemy flee from battle without even trying.

In case you missed we took the room, we won the fight and we used less resources than otherwise would have.

Hahahahahaha!

In case you missed it, this doesn't help you at all. It actually strategically hurts you.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because I don't have a sign around my neck saying I have a high AC. At this point I am one elf standing in a doorway with a human behind her that some of them can see.

You're just standing there are you? I thought you were leaping around, springing in and out of a defensive stance, while parrying, ducking and weaving via taking the Dodge action while also Blade-dancing with the Sentinel feat?

You're not just 'standing there'.

You're also blocking the damn doorway, which you insisted I retcon to being only a few feet wide. As soon as the door became only a few feet wide, it became effectively impossible to do what they wanted to do (storm the party), and the only thing the could do was throw missile weapons through it, and fall back to alert the rest of the dungeon (we are sentries after all) and reinforce at a position where they could bring their whole force to bear.

You could have blocked the doorway by being a big dumb fighter and just standing there. They would have done the same thing to him as well.

 

[Maxperson]

You're just standing there are you? I thought you were leaping around, springing in and out of a defensive stance, while parrying, ducking and weaving via taking the Dodge action while also Blade-dancing with the Sentinel feat?

So, I've been near people who are dancing and they're pretty easy to hit. And everyone fighting springs in and out of defensive stances, parries, ducks, etc. Those things are a normal part of combat. If you are having the orcs avoid attacking the Bladesinger due to a high AC without having first attacked him a few times, so that they learn by missing badly that he's really hard to hit, you are metagaming the orcs info that they should not possess.

 

[auburn2]

One Orog gets pinned (Sentinel). The other one then dashes away into the other room.

Next up is the Ranger who moves 35' into the room where he positions himself to be able to see the survivor through the 10' doorway (cover is irrelevant as he's a sharpshooter), Hunters Marks it, shoots twice, and as it's already badly wounded, likely killing it.

To start with why does the bladesinger need to use shield? According to you earlier the enemy would "ignore" her, but instead of "ignoring", they use every single action they have in the first round to attack her? You just contridicted yourself. As a matter of fact the argument was not only that they would ignore her, but that would ignore her to attack others and beat the party in terms of action economy ..... but you are not doing that either. Also nowhere in the description of dodge does it say you are "leaping around" you are probably waiting for the enemy to get close or lanuch an attack to do something like that, but even if it is I hardly think 6 aggressive orcs are going to be scared off by a leaping, dodging, dancing elf.

The Ranger can't shoot the fleeing orog unless the DM is stupid. The orog is going to move to the side to avoid getting shot at. The Ranger is 30' into the hallway with allies in front of him in the hallway (difficult terrain to move through them or uses extra movement to go around them). This savant Orog is smart enough to know a lone elf in a doorway is unhittable just by looking at her but he is too stupid to know to move to the side while fleeing to get full cover? If you were playing the enemy smart instead of trying to make a point and take away player agency he would move to the side and the only person who could target him is MAYBE the Rogue and that is after taking dash as a BA and without a sneak attack and to even do that assumes the wizard and the immobilized Orog in the room are positioned so he does not have to go through or around them. Oh and by the way now in terms of rolls - lets see with fireball I managaged to kill all 4 orcs and the Orog that got away missed his save. I managed to hit the Orog that might have saved on fireball with sentinel, the Ranger managed to hit and get enough damage to kill the fleeing Orog too stupid to take cover. Finally, let's point out the wizard needs to go into melee range for that corner condition where I can stop them with fireball, great rolls, and a stupid Orog to even be possible. She can't stop them from fleeing if she "acts like a proper wizard should" and stays back out of melee after the fireball.

The whole point of your original position is it is never a help for the party for the bladesinger to dodge and keep the enemy off other players. You set up a scenario, tried to prove you point with the enemy getting great initiative rolls, when it didn't work, you changed your tactics to get a "bad" outcome for the party but one which is completely irrelevant to your original claim concerning combat and action encomy.

Your original argument was NOT that bladesong and dodge allows an enemy to flee from a battle and alert the complex, it was that the enemy will ignore her and she does not contribute to the fight. You argued that it would help the enemy win the fight or at least do better in the fight based on action economy and the bladesinger taking a useless action. That is what YOU said would happen, it didn't happen and you didn't even try to support that claim. As a matter of fact all the attacks they did launch targeted the bladesinger who they were supposedly going to "ignore". What you really see and don't want to admit is bladesong+dodge in this scenario, or in many others like it, puts the party way AHEAD on action economy forcing the enemy to use actions on things like overun, grapple or futile attacks with very little chance of hitting. Meanwhile the party pulverizes them with damage from range. You know it, it has been made abundantly clear but you don't want to admit it.

New game - it is a 40x40 foot barracks with a 3' door 2 Orogs and 4 Orcs and no exit. Bladesinger opens it positions herslef in the doorway does bladesong. This is a much better scenario to evaluate YOUR argument because they can't avoid a fight and we can evaluate your claims that this hurts the party in terms of action economy. Try to support your actual argument now.

Lets play!

 

[Simonb1]

At 10th level you'll be kind of a subpar melee fighter, who should be hanging back and casting spells. Prior to that you'll be an awful melee fighter who should be hanging back and casting spells.

I would have thought a melee fighting tank would be a better option in a party with 2-3 ranged PCs.

Dex based Elven (+2 Dex) Eldritch Knight using a Double bladed Scimitar looks pretty good with those stats, taking the Revenant blade feat at 4th level (which also raises your Dex to 20 as an Elf), and then taking GWM at 6th, and whatever else you want at 8th and 10th.

Your AC should be fine with +1 from the Revenant blade feat, a high Dex (or heavy armour) and Defence style (AC 20) with Shield online from 3rd.
If your DM considers Custom lineage [Elf] to qualify for Elven feats, take Revenant Blade at 1st level for a Starting Dex of 20 (plus a finessable and heavy double weapon).

Lytham pqp

 

[Kiyal]

Ok, how does this stupid argument have anything to do with the OP's actual question?

 

[Maxperson]

Ok, how does this stupid argument have anything to do with the OP's actual question?

Bladesingers!