I dashed through the room because you said the orcs were 20' away from the parrty in a 40x40 room. Not that the party was in the hallway. That is fundamentally different.
I answered above if they are in a hallway.
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D&D 5E rogue-bladesinger?
- Thread starter auburn2
- Start date
I answered above if they are in a hallway.
That is the whole idea .... and it works.
As for your argument about "being a wizard" every spell being discussed is a wizard spell, and there is an entire school of wizardry in the PHB that focuses on abjurations and another that focuses on illusions. Maybe your group doesn't use them and has very one-dimensional wizards, but those spells are there for wizards to use and they are balanced by the developers through substantial playtesting.
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This is exactly what I have been trying to say! THANK YOU!
Flamestrike
Legend
None of that matters, as Orcs move 60' (30' extra with a bonus action thanks to the aggressive trait). They start Combat loosely spaced in the the middle of the 40' wide room, 20' from the doorway
You open the door from the 10' wide hallway [triggering combat], and then disengage + BS and run to other side of the room, opening the door that leads further into the dungeon.
Your party are evenly spaced up behind where you were, in the 10' hallway.
They (the Orogs) move to the Rogue (one of them provoking an AoO from the Cleric, who hits, dealing 10 damage), and swing at him 4 times, followed by a single Orc that nails the Rouge. The Ranger draws his sword and Hunter marks attacks twice, hitting an Orog each time, dealing 22 damage, and the Cleric hems them in with Spirit guardians.
I made a mistake last time - Spirit guardians hasnt damaged anything yet as the Orcs haven't started a turn in it yet, so they dont have to make saves yet.
Your companions are are red, you are blue, and the Orcs are green:
The Orcs combined made 8 attacks rolls (5 of them against an AC 15 and 3 vs AC 19), hitting with 5 of them (one shielded) with damage largely being averaged. 4 hits from 8 attacks in total. They also attempted 3 saves, only passing 1 (but really dont have to make those saves yet, as they havent yet started a turn inside Spirit Guardians).
The party combined (Ranger and Cleric) made 3 attacks vs AC 18, hitting with all 3.
Everyone is rolling reasonably well, with damage rolls being around average.
I did the same thing, and we're in the same position.
The Cleric has pushed back to catch all the Orcs in the hallway in Spirit Guardians. The Ranger hems them in on the other side. The Rogue is down (and bleeding) in the middle of the two, with an Orc about to cut off his head.
You stand at the doorway some 50' from the Cleric, with 3 Orcs blocking your way back to them, and the Cleric screaming for you to get back and help.
It's your turn.
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Flamestrike
Legend
Total party resources used so far (1 round of combat):
- 1 x 3rd level slot (spirit guardians)
- 2 x 1st level slots (shield and hunters mark)
- 1 x bladesong
- 39 Hit points lost
You have my positon wrong in your diagram. At the end of my turn I am in the hallway with the rest of the party. I get to choose where I am let's try this again, as I posted above:
"Bladesinger opens the door sees the Orcs causes initiative, the orcs and orogs get their over the top extremely high rolls, the bladesinger backs up into the hallway just beyond the threshold of the door, goes into bladesong and takes dodge action."
You have me, the blue diamond, at the wrong door in your diagram. I am just outside the door I opened. It looks like what is below (not sure where the orcs are to start but the blue and red are me and my party after the bladesingers turn). Now try your turn.
As for the high rolls. There is a Ranger with a +3 (or more) initiative, a Rogue with a +3 (or more) initiative, and a cleric with a +1 initiative. You made 8 intiative rolls with a +1 and beat all 3 of those characters all 8 times. Yes that is really high rolls. It is really high if you just rolled for the orcs and orogs and beat them. You also hit the Rogue 4 times on 5 attacks against him where you needed a 9 on 4 and a 10 on 1, the chance of 3 or more hits by the Orogs and 1 by the orc is 21%. So yes it is very good, not impossible but very good. As for the bladesinger the chance you hit her once on three attempts needing a 14, that part is about what it should be.
That doesn't matter though because you did not even have the positioning right so try your move again.
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Flamestrike
Legend
Ah OK. You're now standing in the 10' wide hallway, with 5' of space between you and the Cleric.
After you turn an Orc goes to move past you. Do you attempt an Opportunity attack with your Sentinel feat as it moves past?
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Flamestrike
Legend
Of course you did!
Again - you did not do my move right. I posted a new diagram for you, try looking at it.
Stop whining and make your first move, one that is actually representative of what I said I did above.
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Flamestrike
Legend
See post above. You're a Medium creature in a 10' wide hallway (as stated multiple times, and shown in the above diagram). The Orcs and Orogs can move past you. They can use Bonus action aggressive trait to move up to 30' to you, then move normally a further 30' into the hallway, all the way up to the Ranger.
And no more sudden shifting of position or retconning the whole party.
Do you want to make an AoO as the first Orc attempts to move past you with your Sentinel feat?
Yes or No?
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The orc can not just move past me I am standing in a doorway. I am medium and take up 5 feet of space. A door is 3' wide and we are both medium size. Form the PHB page 191 "you can move through a hostile creatures space only if the creature is two sizes larger or smaller than you"
If we are using the dmg optional actions the orc can try overun or tumble to go through me, but I am in bladesong and I get advantage on acrobatics checks. Also going through me is difficult terrain even if he is successful, so make sure you count that in terms of movement. The rogue you want to kill is 20 feet behind me, the orcs were 20 feet in front of me when I opened the door (or at least two were the others are presumably further) and the space I am in is difficult terrain.
Oh when you go for the Ranger's turn keep in mind he ignores cover ..... the orcs, orogs and Rogue dont.
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Flamestrike
Legend
Its a 10' hallway leading into a 40' room. I never stipulated how wide the doorway is, but I drew them the width of the hallway. You can assume they're the number of squares as drawn (two in this case).
However seeing as you're confused as to this point, it's a 10' wide opening.
Feel free to ret-con your turn (again) with this information.
From where I am sitting, if your action is ANYTHING other than 'Cast fireball, frying all four Mooks, enter bladesong, advance and threaten both wounded Orogs to cut off their escape and stop them from moving and alerting the others in the Dungeon with Sentinel' you're doing it wrong.
At that point, the Orogs are screwed. They've taken 28 damage or so, and have 2 ranged glass cannon PCs (a Crossbow expert Rogue and a Sharpshooting ranger) to survive before they even get a second turn (plus whatever the cleric does), and they dont have enough movement to escape.
The encounter is over before it begins, with only a 3rd level slot and 3 x 1sts (Hunters mark, Bless and Shield), and a Bladesong used (and if you're quick you might be able to retain a few rounds of that Bladesong and Bless for the next encounter, and Hunters mark remains active for an hour) and likely no damage taken in return.
This should have been your action all along. It doesnt matter what your party formation is or anything else for that matter.
Just standing there dancing around in the hallway dodging, means the Orcs have ample time to raise the alarm, the Dungeon is likely to be alerted to your presence, and reinforcements would be incoming.
Unless you think the Orcs were just going to conga line up to that door one at a time, and attack you while youre dodging there, which, they wont.
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No it is not it is a door .... I opened a door saw the orcs and caused initiative. Here is your exact quote: "Its a party of a Wizard, Ranger, Cleric and Rogue in formation in a 10' wide hallway, opening a dungeon door and fighting Orcs in the room beyond."
You "never stipulated" the size of a door, so it was a door 10' wide and built for a Giant and you just called it a door, not a massive door or a huge door or double doors. Just a door. Then when I make my move based it being a normal door all of a sudden it is a 10' wide door?
There are a whole 3 or 4 posts above where you go back and forth with another guy on whether it is smart for the bladesinger to open the door ... but now all of a sudden the door isn't even there, it is just an opening. By the way I have 60' darkvision, and I see them from a heck of a lot further back if it is just an opening.
Make your move like it is a normal door, I want you to show me how tactically unsound it is to have a bladesinger in a chokepoint ... since that is the whole point of this thread. Let's say it is an actual normal door. Supposedly, they are never going to attack a dodging bladesinger, so don't attack him, attack someone else in the party. It can be done, make your move.
Bottom line you know you are beat and you are just changing things to suit yourself. Or maybe this is just how your games are played and you ignore things like cover terrain, movement, positioning and just turn it into one side rolling hits and saves against the other. if that is true I get why you think what you think.
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Flamestrike
Legend
I literally dont care about that. I said the doorway was roughly 10' wide above, and drew it as such prior.
I'm not changing anything. I literally drew a diagram of the hallway, doorway, and rooms!
Screw it, whatever. You can tell me how wide the doorway is. The doorway is only 3' wide as you requested. This obviously changes the Orcs actions, seeing as they cant get through.
Orcs turn:
Orog 1 throws a javelin at you then moves 20' back to the Southern door (leading to the statue room), opens it, and moves a further 10' to the side of room two. Orog 2 does the same, as do 3 of the Orcs.
One Orc (the last one through) also closes the door as he goes through it, and the 4th Orc instead of tossing a javelin at you, instead Dashes to the Eastern Door of Room 2 where reinforcements are, opening that door, and screaming 'Intruders Intruders' at the top of his lungs.
You cop 5 x Javelin attacks at +5/6 v AC 19 (disadvantage). We can assume one hits. It deals 7 damage.
All Orcs are now in the Southern room, with the 10' wide double door between the two rooms closed, and the door between the Eastern room (which you have yet to see) and the Southern room, now open.
Your allies all take the Dodge action as well, and ask you what the hell are you doing?
Q1 : Do you want to shield against the 1 javelin that hit?
Q2: Its now your turn 2. What do you do?
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Flamestrike
Legend
Encounter 2 is also now triggered by virtue of you sitting back and dodging, and letting the Orcs race off alert them.
Ill roll initiative for those monsters as well, but they all rolled terribly (to appease your complaints about my supposed awesome rolling) and they all go after the Cleric next round.
Im not sure your tactics are working too well here by the way?
Ill roll initiative for those monsters as well, but they all rolled terribly (to appease your complaints about my supposed awesome rolling) and they all go after the Cleric next round.
Im not sure your tactics are working too well here by the way?
I never said that and it would not happen in the game I play. People never "line up in a conga line and attack" in games I play. Ironically that is more or less what you think the party should do all just do an attack instead of thinking tactically.
With an actual door the bladesinger just put the enemy at a huge disadvantage. They are not zombies though, they are going to try to remove it. they are NOT going to line up in a conga line.
There is a lot of options, here are the three most likely how it would (and has) happened in my campaign.
1. Two orcs grapple the bladesinger, one uses help, the other uses grapple. This is not a winning strategy, but it takes away her advantage. She still has a high dex and wins more than she loses but good rolls on the part of the orcs and she is grappeled, then they move her out of the doorway. From an action economy point of view this hurts them severly but they willeventually suceed.
2. the try to use shove aside from the dmg. This is a shove with disadvantage. Again it is unlikely to work but better than attacking.
3. One orc tries to knock her prone to even the disadvantage while the other attacks. This is not likely to work.
4. The try overun to get behind her, into the meat of the party and flank her. This is suicide if it is successful.
Those are the things that would likely happen at my table and it is exactly the opposite of a "conga line"
Flamestrike
Legend
No, you missed Option 5 (see above).
They all throw javelins at you from complete safety (one hit AC 19 at disadvantage at +5/6), then fall-back into the Southern room (closing the 10' wide door between the two rooms) and alerting the creatures of Encounter 2 (who I just rolled initiative for, and who go last next round); naemly the Captain of the Guard (and the BBEG's evil apprentice) and his war party.
Your blade singer hears (more) Orcish war cries coming from that Southern room through the 10' wide closed double doors.
1) Do you cast shield against the 1 javelin that hits?
2) Its your turn 2; what do you do?
If it is a 10 foot wide double door the rest of the party is way back, all the way on the stairs.
I open the door and seeing the orcs I back up 30 feet into the hall with the party on the stairs behind me. I am going to tak a ready action and use booming blade on the first enemy that gets within 5 feet. I am also going into bladesong.
Now in this discussion it is important to note I am not attacking and by what you said earlier the orcs are not going to attack me. from their point of view there is no difference between dodge and what I am doing.
To be clear, I am 30 feet from the door, the closest orcs are 20 foot on the other side. the party is on/up the stairs with the closest person 10' behind me.
Flamestrike
Legend
No, its a 3' wide door now just like you assumed. I'm sick of this back and forwards. You wanted a 3' door, you've got a 3' door.
Your action above stands (bladesong and dodge, blocking the doorway), as does the Orcs actions in tossing javelins, hitting you once, and falling back, closing the 10' double doors to the next room, and alerting their allies.
- Do you want to cast shield against the javelin that hit?
- Its your turn 2. What do you do?
So basically they did not go past me and kill the rest of the party like you said they would all the way back in the begining of this whole thread. We took the room with no casualties. Battle over. Thread over.
Based on what you just said here, if I opened with fireball like you wanted the surviving Orogs and the probable one orc that survived would have done the exact same thing, I would have one less fireball spell and I might have taken real damage since I would not have been dodging. Now I saved my spell, saved the damage and can get a lot more than 3 orcs in it when I cast it (which will probably be soon)
If they are going to retreat and raise and alarm from a person standing in a doorway they are darn sure going to retreat and raise an alarm from someone who just killed half of them in one shot and because they got the crazy high initiative there is nothing I nor the rest of the party could have done to stop them. If I fireballed them there WILL be survivors and fireball does not lock those survivors in place. I would have traded a fireball, which it now appears will be desperately needed, for THREE orcs.
Oh by the way, if we hear Orcs getting close, I will be ok with the cleric casting spirit guardians when the 50 orcs or so arrive. I still don't think hunters mark is the best way to go though.
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