That's like saying "giant meteorite about to crash into the earth aside, it's a good day to be a dinosaur".Spell slot limits aside
That's like saying "giant meteorite about to crash into the earth aside, it's a good day to be a dinosaur".Spell slot limits aside
I never said she was a melee fighter. Often I don't even attack and just take the dodge action.
You are talking about a wizard casting two second-level spells in a battle to become nearly unhitable by most foes. That is hardly expensive. The fighter can not come close to that, and even without that expense of spell slots she is will ahead of the fighter.It's a very expensive success, to burn through two second level spell slots, an X per long rest resource, and possibly a couple of first level slots to do what a guy in full plate with a shield can do whilst catching up on the Football scores on their mobile phone...
Hit points are a limited use resource too so whether I lose 50hp with my fighter being fireballed. or I lose 25hp and a 1st level slot with my wizard being fireballed, both used limited use resources. I would argue the Wizard used fewer as she now has resistance for the rest of the round and probably has more hp remaining than the fighter.That's like saying "giant meteorite about to crash into the earth aside, it's a good day to be a dinosaur".
That is really expensive for what you're actually achieving.You are talking about a wizard casting two second-level spells in a battle to become nearly unhitable by most foes. That is hardly expensive.
What is Wizard's AC when they don't have Bladesong, or spell slots available? Plate guy's is still 18.The fighter can not come close to that, and even without that expense of spell slots she is will ahead of the fighter.
The guy in plate armor really can't really do what I am talking about, and we have such players in our game. Unless he has a shield and takes defense fighting style the guy in plate is much easier to hit than a bladesinger in bladesong even without casting any second level spells.
Plate guy has an 18 AC, wizard has a 23. Lowly Goblins are going to hit plate guy nearly four times as often as a bladesinger. like I said that is without using any 2nd level spells and it is without taking the dodge action. If they both take the dodge action plate guy is 10 time more likely to get hit by goblins. He does not have 10 times as many hit points, or 4 times as many hit points as the wizard.
Plate guys AC is 18 if he is still alive, if fights completely ran a mid-level single-class bladesinger out of spell slots he probably isn't though and if they ran a high level bladesinger out he definitely isn't.That is really expensive for what you're actually achieving.
Remember the standard adventuring day is going to be 6 different fights. Unless the DM is massively coddling the full-casters by giving them short days they are going to be down to cantrips a significant amount of the time.
Using 2 second-level spells, a bladesong, and shield whenever it looks like you might get hit makes you nearly unhittable - For that fight. After the 2nd or 3rd fight however, you're likely to be running dry, and you haven't even cast any spells to actually help the party achieve something. Start using offensive or utility spells and you're going to be begging for a long rest when you're only half-way through the day.
What is Wizard's AC when they don't have Bladesong, or spell slots available? Plate guy's is still 18.
You are keeping them off your other characters. That is the whole point of the bladesinger and it undeniably works. You present yourself to be attacked and the enemy attacks you while others damage the enemy. You also block chokepoints. There is no denying it works extremely effectively.How on earth is that contributing to a fight?
You have 2 ranged attackers. Play a hard hitting tank to stop the enemy from getting to them by presenting yourself as a target worth attacking.
No you're not!You are keeping them off your other characters.
Because she is a caster for one and does pose a threat, and/or he can't get around her easily. This is like asking why would he attack anyone in the front when you can go around him and get to squishy characters in the rear. If it is a choke point they can't get around her unless they use the optional rules. If they use the optional rules they can try overun, if they have decent strength they have a good chance of winning. Tumble is not really an option for most enemies as the bladesinger has advantage on acrobatics.No you're not!
Why on earth would monsters attack a PC that is not attacking, is dodging and poses no threat?
If the fighter was just dodging, I'd have my monsters ignore him as well!Because he is a caster and does pose a threat, and/or he can't get around him. This is like asking why would he attack a fighter.
If you don't attack the bladesinger the bladesinger uses no spells at all AND gets an OA. And if she has sentinel feat you cant' move.
Nah, I'd simply have monster 1 move past you and start wailing on the two ranged PCs in the party to shut them down.If you really want to get around her, the best way is to attack until she throws a shield and then move away.
I've also found a lot of demand for reactions, or rather, my desire to get attacks as a reaction fights with the build's defense relying a lot on reducing incoming damage or negating attacks with reactions.The only issue I've had playing my AT/Bladesinger is that it has really serious bonus action demand.
One of the two bladesingers I play has Sentinel, and uses a whip primarily so it covers a broad area. Why wouldn't you take it if your whole goal in your character build is to control the battlefield? It makes perfect sense as a build and works really well. The second one does not have it but she is in a more martial oriented party and spends less time blocking and such.If the fighter was just dodging, I'd have my monsters ignore him as well!
For all the good that does the party. Instead of dodging, he should be fighting!
We've already covered this. Not that it matters, and how many Blade singers have Sentinel in their build (a feat that AGAIN would be so much better on a Barbarian!)
Nah, I'd simply have monster 1 move past you and start wailing on the two ranged PCs in the party to shut them down.
You can make an AoO if you want to, but then you cant shield, and being up the front of a party of ranged PCs, you're likely surrounded by several other monsters (on a d6HD class), and the ranged PCs still get threatened and attacked.
The remaining monsters can then walk past you, or simply wail on you, likely a combination of both.
To make a 'sticky' PC in 5E, you want to draw attacks (compel enemies to attack you by presenting as a dangerous target, and a hittable one), not skyrocket your AC so high, while otherwise doing nothing but dodging so the DM and the monsters never bother to even try to hit you.
5E combats are over in around 3-4 rounds, and the best thing you can do is take an enemy out of the fight asap to reduce the enemies overall action economy as opposed to your own parties action economy. Focusing on a single enemy at a time to drop that enemy ASAP, reduces return attacks from those enemies, and lowers resource expenditure elsewhere (HP attrition, healing spells, HD).
Blade singers are not melee combatants. They're wizards with a decent defensive ability, and the ability to engage in melee in a absolute pinch. Running one into melee all the time is a liability for the rest of the party.
Ill just wear the AoO.One of the two bladesingers I play has Sentinel, and uses a whip primarily so it covers a broad area.
The bladesinger does not have "decent" defensive abilities, they superb defensive abilities.
Enemies can wail on me all they want,
Ill just wear the AoO.
Stopping movement if you hit is nice, but you've effectively now used your action to Dodge, and your reaction to deal 1d4+Dex slashing.
I would honestly just ignore that PC. There are so many better things you can do with your action and reaction as a Wizard.
Why would they?
PC 1 (Bladesinger 5, Elf, Elven accuracy, Bladedancing, AC 18 + shield) and PC 2 (Barbarian, raging, GWM, reckless attack, AC 15) are in melee with an 2 Orogs and 4 Orcs.
The Bladesinger uses his action to Dodge. He now has an AC of 18, enemies are at disadvantage to hit him, and he has shield up his sleeve.
The Barbarian uses his action to Attack twice, recklessly, with GWM toggled 'on' killing an Orog, and triggering a bonus action cleave, killing an Orc. He now has an AC of 15, and the remaining Orcs have advantage to hit him.
You're the monsters. Who do you attack? Who has drawn the attacks better here? Who do you not want to be drawing an AoO from the (1d12+15 damage barbarian, or the Blade dancer)? Who do you likely ignore? Who achieved more this round in negating incoming damage from the monsters, and who wasted an action doing effectively nothing?
The higher your AC, the less attacks you're going to get. It doesn't help you tank, it stops you from being a tank.The damage is not the point. To start with the bladesinger likely has a 19AC or a 20 if they pushed dex to 18 with an ASI or half feat. Also Elven accuracy is a waste for a bladesinger. Sentinel, War Caster, an ASI or one of many other half feats are better IMO.
Great, he did his job!The Barbarian wins initiative, is in rage and reckless attack. He can't use cleave in round 1 because he went into rage, and kills 1 Orog. 1 Orog and 4 living Orcs do 20 hp damage in round 1, that assumes 1 Orc misses (Orog 21, 3 Orcs 20 = 41, halfed to 20). Round 2 he kills the other Orog and an Orc. Remaining orcs all hit and do another 15hp. Third round he knocks off 2 more orcs and the last orc hits for 5 points of damage, meaning he is left with exactly 0hp plus whatever he has from constitution bonuses. So at the end of 4 rounds the Barbarian is nearly dead, but the enemy is totally dead.
Rolling into disadvantage against a 24AC effective
In discussing this lets remember the whole point of your argument and the whole reason she is using dodge is that it is a "waste" for the bladesinger to use a single 2nd level spell slot and be in blur for this fight.
I have a third option for you though. The Barbarian and the Bladesinger walk into the room together and see a group of Orogs and Orcs. The bladesinger charges in making a lot of noise, waving her sword and gets in close to the enemy on the first turn. The Barbarian slinks up slowly goes into rage and lets loose on an Orog on the edge without getting too close to the others, he kills that Orog and backs off, putting the bladesinger between himself and the others.
Let me point out the first and biggest falacy in this whole arguement. - Supposedly the Bladesinger can not be on the front line in melee because she is too weak and does not have enough hps and if she uses spells like blur to bolster her defense she is "wasting" them ..... but if she goes into melee the enemy is not going to bother attacking her anyway, "why would they". Which is it? Are they going to attack her or ignore her? You can't have it both ways.The higher your AC, the less attacks you're going to get. It doesn't help you tank, it stops you from being a tank.
I never said she had an ASI and a Feat. I said her AC would be 19 (13+3Dex+3Int). That is without an ASI If she takes an ASI or half feat it would be 20 (without Sentinel). I said an ASI or Sentinel or a host of other feats are better than Elven Accuracy.This low level bladesinger now has Dex 18 (ASI or half feat) AND Sentinel?
Great, he did his job!
He not only killed a lot of things personally, he tanked every single hit, keeping the party safe.
The Bladesinger (as a 5th level Wizard) should have dumped a fireball in this encounter (before recovering that spell slot with arcane recovery next short rest). It kills every single Orc, and leaves the Orogs with a handfull of HP to be picked off at will. The encounter is over before it begins.
Sleep also works as it shuts down at 2-3 Orcs.
Instead, he's wandered forward and taken the Dodge action. In return, the Orcs ignore him and wail on the other PCs in the party, focussing their attention on someone they can hit.
I'm not having it both ways!Let me point out the first and biggest falacy in this whole arguement. - Supposedly the Bladesinger can not be on the front line in melee because she is too weak and does not have enough hps and if she uses spells like blur to bolster her defense she is "wasting" them ..... but if she goes into melee the enemy is not going to bother attacking her anyway, "why would they". Which is it? Are they going to attack her or ignore her? You can't have it both ways.
Blur would be a waste, because all it does is waste an action making you harder to hit.Why would I "waste" a 3rd level spell slot with a fireball? I have been told it is a "waste" to use a 2nd level spell slot and now you want me to use a 3rd? That is the whole reason I am taking the dodge action, because using blur is a "waste".
By the way on average the Fireball does 28 damage and kills 2-3 Orcs, not all of them, and if I was fighting on my own I might do that.
It is a complete waste as I use my action and the orcs that are awake wake up the ones that aren't. So one orc falls asleep, a second orc loses an action waking him, the other 4 opponents attack me and I am back where I started just with 1 less spell and one lost round.
Supposedly dodge does "nothing to contribute:"