D&D 5E rogue-bladesinger?

[auburn2]

At 10th level you'll be kind of a subpar melee fighter, who should be hanging back and casting spells. Prior to that you'll be an awful melee fighter who should be hanging back and casting spells.

I would have thought a melee fighting tank would be a better option in a party with 2-3 ranged PCs.

Dex based Elven (+2 Dex) Eldritch Knight using a Double bladed Scimitar looks pretty good with those stats, taking the Revenant blade feat at 4th level (which also raises your Dex to 20 as an Elf), and then taking GWM at 6th, and whatever else you want at 8th and 10th.

Your AC should be fine with +1 from the Revenant blade feat, a high Dex (or heavy armour) and Defence style (AC 20) with Shield online from 3rd.

If your DM considers Custom lineage [Elf] to qualify for Elven feats, take Revenant Blade at 1st level for a Starting Dex of 20 (plus a finessable and heavy double weapon).

I have never played this multiclass, but I never hang back with a single class bladesinger. If you are doing that you are playing the subclass wrong IMO and your AC needs to be above 22 with shield and bladesong active at low levels to do it well. Having fewer spell slots for shield might change that a bit though and this character will be a little softer than a single-class mage.

Regarding damage I think this is better than you might think with this multiclass - assuming you land sneak attack, damage without shadow blade at 10th level is 30.5DPR to one enemy and 7.5DPR to another within 5 feet: 2d8(rapier twice) + 1d8(GFB) + 2d6(SA) + 10(Dex) plus another 1d8+3(GFB) to the second enemy. 38 points a turn is not that bad and that is without using any limited use abilities or a -5 to hit. If you use shadow blade that would be 35 against one enemy or 44 if you use a 3rd/4th level slot. There are lots of other variations too; shadow blade with short sword GFB - 34 to one enemy, 7.5 to a second. With shadow blade there is another 3.5 on the table for a BA offhand attack too (although there are lots of other BA options).

 

[auburn2]

I've seen them played.

HPs are never irrelevant, since not all attacks target your AC. What are you going to do when the dragon breathes fire on you? Absorb Elements only halves the damage. And it's worse when the damage type isn't elemental. Here comes a mind flayer psionic blast. Enemy cleric zaps you with Toll the Dead.

And 20 always critically hits, no matter what your AC.

I agree about hp. I said they are irrelevant in melee - meaning someone swinging weapons, claws, tentacals at you and making an attack roll against your AC. When the dragon breathes fire on you then you die, and you die regardless of where you are standing when he does it. Same with psionic blast and toll the dead. I will note though that a 10th level bladesinger can reduce the damage done by all of those by 25 points with song of defense, which is more than the difference in hp between a 10th level wizard (42hp) and 10th level fighter (64hp). So all else being equal; at 10th level, if an enemy is going to one shot you with enough save damage to kill the bladesinger, it is going to kill the fighters in the party too. Note against the dragon she could alternatively use absorb elements and half the damage, which again more than evens up the difference in hp.

A 20 with disadvantage is only a critical if you roll two of them on the same attack (1 in 400) and only if it targets you and not one of your images. Playing two bladesingers for 3 years I have never had a critical hit on them while both blur and mirror image were up. I have had one critical hit with just blur up and that was a one-shot. Some dragon-hybrid rolled two 20s and downed my 6th level wizard straight out with one hit and a 6th level fighter I think would have survived that hit (although I am not sure a fighter would have survived the turn). That has happened once, total, in 3 years of games, and that was the only time that particular character got hit by a melee attack at all the entire time she was 6th level.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

When the dragon breathes fire on you then you die, and you die regardless of where you are standing when he does it. Same with psionic blast and toll the dead.

Which is why your party needs a high hp meatsack (or at least a rogue with evasion)!

Blur is certainly a good way to reduce the chance of being critically hit, but in my experience, buy the time a character has Mirror Image, Blur and Bladesong up the fight is over.

 

[auburn2]

Which is why your party needs a high hp meatsack (or at least a rogue with evasion)!

Blur is certainly a good way to reduce the chance of being critically hit, but in my experience, buy the time a character has Mirror Image, Blur and Bladesong up the fight is over.

Above 10th level a bladesinger is going to keep up with a fighter by using spell slots and absorb elements to reduce damage. Below that yeah sure. As for evasion it is nice when you can use it, but that is far from all the time (it will not work on two of the three save examples you gave above). I think AE is going to be able to be used more often that evasion, albeit without the option for no damage and the need for a spell slot.

Bladesong is a bonus action so it takes two rounds to get blur, bladesong and mirror image up and the whole idea of the build is to not get hit while keeping the enemy off your rear area party members, so if your allies kill the enemy from the back in that time, it is a success. If they don't you are pretty much now unhittable going into turn 3 so you start unleashing with damaging spells or alternatively just wear them down slowly. One thing that can be a drag is higher-level monsters that get multi-attack. That starts eating into your images pretty quick and it can turn into you putting up new images every other round or even every round. One other option is to forego blur and just use dodge action.

One other tactic is bladesong and crown of madness. Crown of madness is such a cool spell thematically but in general it sucks in combat. Bladesinger with the sentinel feat is the only build I have got it to work well. With the sentinel feat you can lock down the bad guy so he can't run away to get separation from his allies and end COM. If he gets a lucky save cast it again. Depending on the DM if he gets away because you have to use a shield or miss with your reaction then you can walk back up to him and make him attack you since he probably won't hit you anyway. Some DM's won't allow this last bit though. This can be so cool with 2+ strong melee enemies with low wisdom saves. You can even swap it up. Charmed enemy gets away and ends the spell, then wait until he comes back into the fricas and then hit the other enemy with it.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Above 10th level a bladesinger is going to keep up with a fighter by using spell slots and absorb elements to reduce damage. Below that yeah sure. As for evasion it is nice when you can use it, but that is far from all the time (it will not work on two of the three save examples you gave above). I think AE is going to be able to be used more often that evasion, albeit without the option for no damage and the need for a spell slot.

I think this gets to the flaw with this theory of Bladesingers being great tanks, in that the spell slot thing, absorb elements, and shield are all competing for the same reaction, but the first two only work one time a round. It is similar to how getting all their various potential buffs up and running at the same time can easily take the whole combat.

I do not think they are great tanks. I think they are circumstantially overpowered tanks whose weakness is being reliant on fiddly activation of limited resources (which is one thing I like about them, there are a lot of strategic decisions to make). With a melee ready ally or two they generally go a long way to collectively eliminating the need for a traditional tank. Whether they can hold their own as the entire front line for a small group is going to depend a lot on group tactics, DM tactics, and encounter design. Bladesingers can deal very well with a single instance of massive damage, or make themself virtually immune to attacks by a bunch of weak enemies, but when there are several high powered attacks and spells coming their way the same round their bag of off-brand tanking tricks doesn't fair so well compared to having actual HP.

To me their combat strength is not that they are among the best at any particular combat role, but that they can switch hit between basically every combat role other than healing.

 

[Flamestrike]

I have never played this multiclass, but I never hang back with a single class bladesinger. If you are doing that you are playing the subclass wrong IMO and your AC needs to be above 22 with shield and bladesong active at low levels to do it well.

You're a Wizard with a solid bonus action defensive ability. Being in melee is the last place you want to be.

Those slots used on Shield at low levels would be far better spent on Sleep or similar spells.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

if your allies kill the enemy from the back in that time, it is a success

It's a very expensive success, to burn through two second level spell slots, an X per long rest resource, and possibly a couple of first level slots to do what a guy in full plate with a shield can do whilst catching up on the Football scores on their mobile phone...

 

[Flamestrike]

It's a very expensive success, to burn through two second level spell slots, an X per long rest resource, and possibly a couple of first level slots to do what a guy in full plate with a shield can do whilst catching up on the Football scores on their mobile phone...

This.

Making a Bladesinger a melee fighter is like trying to turn an Eldritch Knight into a full time caster.

Just... dont.

Great for a 2 level dip in some Dex/ Int EK builds though.

 

[auburn2]

I think this gets to the flaw with this theory of Bladesingers being great tanks, in that the spell slot thing, absorb elements, and shield are all competing for the same reaction, but the first two only work one time a round. It is similar to how getting all their various potential buffs up and running at the same time can easily take the whole combat.

I do not think they are great tanks. I think they are circumstantially overpowered tanks whose weakness is being reliant on fiddly activation of limited resources (which is one thing I like about them, there are a lot of strategic decisions to make). With a melee ready ally or two they generally go a long way to collectively eliminating the need for a traditional tank. Whether they can hold their own as the entire front line for a small group is going to depend a lot on group tactics, DM tactics, and encounter design. Bladesingers can deal very well with a single instance of massive damage, or make themself virtually immune to attacks by a bunch of weak enemies, but when there are several high powered attacks and spells coming their way the same round their bag of off-brand tanking tricks doesn't fair so well compared to having actual HP.

To me their combat strength is not that they are among the best at any particular combat role, but that they can switch hit between basically every combat role other than healing.

Spell slot limits aside there is not much difference between a tanking fighter and a tanking wizard. If the wizard has 42 hp and gets hit with a 50hp fireball and cuts it to 25 and then gets hit again for another 25 he can't use a nother reaction and is at zero hit points. Fighter with 64 hit points gets hit with 50hp fireball gets hit again for another 25 and he is at zero. The only time it does not work is if the other tank you are comparing him to can likewise use a reaction to reduce damage (many can), or to a Rogue or Barbarian that don't need to use a reaction to do it.

There are limited uses, you are right about that and it is a concern. That is also why I have never mutliclassed a bladesinger until now (and I am not sure how it is going to work now). If you concentrate your limited use resources primarily on defense you typically will not run out. You do have some versatility because you are a wizard with a full range of offensive magic at your disposal and I do use offense at times, but usually when I am pretty confident I won't run out later in the day or when it is needed to go "nova" and kill an enemy. I am typically not going to use offensive spells to take down enemies that my party is going to deal with in another 1 or 2 rounds anyway and often I won't even attack them.

 

[auburn2]

This.

Making a Bladesinger a melee fighter is like trying to turn an Eldritch Knight into a full time caster.

Just... dont.

Great for a 2 level dip in some Dex/ Int EK builds though.

I never said she was a melee fighter. Often I don't even attack and just take the dodge action.

I said she will survive in melee longer than a fighter. Bladesinger has a better AC, more defensive spells and at higher levels effectively more hit points. If she and an EK with similar ability scores are in battle the same number or rounds and get targeted the same number of times with identical attacks of the appropriate CR and average rolls it will take more rounds to push her to 0 hp.

To turn that upside down - If bladesinger and EK are fighting an enemy in melee, the EK has far better melee attacks and more melee attacks. If she and an EK with similar ability scores are fighting an enemy of the appropriate CR and average rolls the EK has a much better chance of winning the fight outright, will always finish a melee fight quicker and as a result will be targeted less during the course of the battle.

Both of the above statements are undeniably true.