D&D 5E rogue-bladesinger?

[Paul Farquhar]

Spell slot limits aside

That's like saying "giant meteorite about to crash into the earth aside, it's a good day to be a dinosaur".

 

[Flamestrike]

I never said she was a melee fighter. Often I don't even attack and just take the dodge action.

How on earth is that contributing to a fight?

You have 2 ranged attackers. Play a hard hitting tank to stop the enemy from getting to them by presenting yourself as a target worth attacking.

 

[auburn2]

It's a very expensive success, to burn through two second level spell slots, an X per long rest resource, and possibly a couple of first level slots to do what a guy in full plate with a shield can do whilst catching up on the Football scores on their mobile phone...

You are talking about a wizard casting two second-level spells in a battle to become nearly unhitable by most foes. That is hardly expensive. The fighter can not come close to that, and even without that expense of spell slots she is will ahead of the fighter.

The guy in plate armor really can't really do what I am talking about, and we have such players in our game. Unless he has a shield and takes defense fighting style the guy in plate is much easier to hit than a bladesinger in bladesong even without casting any second level spells.

Plate guy has an 18 AC, wizard has a 23. Lowly Goblins are going to hit plate guy nearly four times as often as a bladesinger. like I said that is without using any 2nd level spells and it is without taking the dodge action. If they both take the dodge action plate guy is 10 time more likely to get hit by goblins. He does not have 10 times as many hit points, or 4 times as many hit points as the wizard.

Surround a 2nd level 18 AC fighter in plate (which is hard to come by this early) with 8 Goblins and he is going to get bloodied and will usually get killed in 3 rounds unless he takes dodge action. If he takes dodge his class brings nothing at all to the table and he is still behind the bladesinger doing likewise. Surround a bladesinger with the same 8 goblins and there is a 50-50 chance she wont get hit at all and will usually survive the fight.

Now if we are talking 1v8 Goblins, where you don't have a party killing the enemy. It looks grim for both but the fighter is more likely to survive than the wizard is as you have to attack to actually to have any chance to win such a fight. The wizard would not even try that though, she would open with sleep or grease or flee ...... plate man would flee too if he was smart, but going Nova in round 1 with some lucky rolls might win it for him.

Key here is the bladesinger is not in the front to kill Goblins. She is not a melee "fighter" like the fighter is. That is the difference.

 

[auburn2]

That's like saying "giant meteorite about to crash into the earth aside, it's a good day to be a dinosaur".

Hit points are a limited use resource too so whether I lose 50hp with my fighter being fireballed. or I lose 25hp and a 1st level slot with my wizard being fireballed, both used limited use resources. I would argue the Wizard used fewer as she now has resistance for the rest of the round and probably has more hp remaining than the fighter.

If a 10th-level bladesinger never casts a single spell she can trade her spell slots directly for 205hp worth of damage over 15 rounds of combat. It is effectively more than that though, because 1 level slots like absorb elements or shield and 2nd level spells like blur and can "save" more than the 5hp or 10hp they are worth by trading directly at later rounds.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You are talking about a wizard casting two second-level spells in a battle to become nearly unhitable by most foes. That is hardly expensive.

That is really expensive for what you're actually achieving.
Remember the standard adventuring day is going to be 6 different fights. Unless the DM is massively coddling the full-casters by giving them short days they are going to be down to cantrips a significant amount of the time.
Using 2 second-level spells, a bladesong, and shield whenever it looks like you might get hit makes you nearly unhittable - For that fight. After the 2nd or 3rd fight however, you're likely to be running dry, and you haven't even cast any spells to actually help the party achieve something. Start using offensive or utility spells and you're going to be begging for a long rest when you're only half-way through the day.

The fighter can not come close to that, and even without that expense of spell slots she is will ahead of the fighter.

The guy in plate armor really can't really do what I am talking about, and we have such players in our game. Unless he has a shield and takes defense fighting style the guy in plate is much easier to hit than a bladesinger in bladesong even without casting any second level spells.

Plate guy has an 18 AC, wizard has a 23. Lowly Goblins are going to hit plate guy nearly four times as often as a bladesinger. like I said that is without using any 2nd level spells and it is without taking the dodge action. If they both take the dodge action plate guy is 10 time more likely to get hit by goblins. He does not have 10 times as many hit points, or 4 times as many hit points as the wizard.

What is Wizard's AC when they don't have Bladesong, or spell slots available? Plate guy's is still 18.

 

[auburn2]

That is really expensive for what you're actually achieving.
Remember the standard adventuring day is going to be 6 different fights. Unless the DM is massively coddling the full-casters by giving them short days they are going to be down to cantrips a significant amount of the time.
Using 2 second-level spells, a bladesong, and shield whenever it looks like you might get hit makes you nearly unhittable - For that fight. After the 2nd or 3rd fight however, you're likely to be running dry, and you haven't even cast any spells to actually help the party achieve something. Start using offensive or utility spells and you're going to be begging for a long rest when you're only half-way through the day.

What is Wizard's AC when they don't have Bladesong, or spell slots available? Plate guy's is still 18.

Plate guys AC is 18 if he is still alive, if fights completely ran a mid-level single-class bladesinger out of spell slots he probably isn't though and if they ran a high level bladesinger out he definitely isn't.

With point buy, awizard's AC is generally 16 at low levels without bladesong or shield. It is higher at higher levels and can equal 18 straight up if you build her that way. Rolling a character (as I did in the example above) can make this more effective and higher. The main difference is the Wizard chooses which fights she needs better AC. Bladesong scales with proficiency so if you are assuming 6 fights a day she is in bladesong for a third of them at 2nd level, half of them at 5th level and two-thirds at 9th level. So at 9th level, before using any slots or optimizing feats, she has a better AC than a fighter in plate in most fights for the day and those most are going to be the tougher fights to boot.

It depends on what level you are how big an investment it is. A 4th-level wizard gets 4 2nd-level slots a day. Using two of them in one fight is a big expense for such a character, but not out of line if it is the "big fight" for that day. You are talking about going nova on someone here - burning two 2nd level slots in 2 rounds. Would you say casting a web and a blindness in the same fight against a boss and his minions at level 4 is huge?

That is not an every fight tactic at low level where there are limited slots. The guy you would do that for though is someone who can 1-shot you pretty easy with a crit AND who gets multiple such attacks AND who you need to also be on offense for. If you don't need offense you save one of the slots and just dodge and if he doesn't get multiple attacks you don't really worry that much about a critical with disadvantage go with the odds you won't take it.

Limited slots are a concern with a bladesinger. I am not underplaying that. If you are talking about a single class character it is generally managable though.

 

[auburn2]

How on earth is that contributing to a fight?

You have 2 ranged attackers. Play a hard hitting tank to stop the enemy from getting to them by presenting yourself as a target worth attacking.

You are keeping them off your other characters. That is the whole point of the bladesinger and it undeniably works. You present yourself to be attacked and the enemy attacks you while others damage the enemy. You also block chokepoints. There is no denying it works extremely effectively.

What does not work is a bladesinger is trying to be a fighter and killing enemies with weapons. Being a wizard from the back works, but not as well as another wizard. The bladesinger shines in a few areas comapared to just about all others - Blocking/controlling chokepoints, tying up enemies at the front to keep the enemy off others and casting AOE spells, especially cone or line based spells that originate with you. The reason the bladesinger is better at the last is he can do it from the front with minimal concern for his safety or party members getting in the way.

You pick your tactics for a specific fight. If you need to plug a hole and be nearly unhittable you do that. If you need to be in the front and be really hard to hit but using big AOE spells to kill large numbers while not catching your party you can do that. If you need to go nova as a wizard in round 1 you do that. If you need to fight the dragon toe-to-toe, up in his face and use help action so your fighter or can land his 50-damage melee attack you can do that. If you need to go use help against a spider so your poisioned Rogue can still get sneak attack. All of those are viable with a bladesinger.

You can play a "hard hitting" tank instead if you want. That can be effective too. It is less versatile in my opinion. You will kill more enemies doing that though so if your DM only awards xp to "the killing blow" then it is undeniably a better choice than a bladesinger.

 

[Flamestrike]

You are keeping them off your other characters.

No you're not!

Why on earth would monsters attack a PC that is not attacking, is dodging and poses no threat?

If I was DMing I would just have the monsters walk past you and threaten and kill the ranged PCs and casters. If you hit one with your AoO, then maybe some of the rest of them would start swinging at you that round as well (no shield now because you AoO).

A far better option would be a Raging Barbarian with a Greatsword and GWM. On his turn, he recklessly attacks, kills an enemy, and then cleaves into a second killing it as well. Two less enemies to worry about now (and two less actions coming back your way). Also, the monsters kind of now WANT to attack him (they have advantage to do so, and he's just too big a threat, and he just killed Bob and Harry) and if they hit, he soaks it with rage.

Now the ranged PCs are OK to act and they monsters are trying to take down the big scary barbarian, they do their thing without being surrounded by monsters, killing a few monsters themselves.

The encounter is now effectively over.

A dodging blade-singer attracts no heat from monsters. Instead of dodging and casting shield, try tossing a sleep spell in which at low level likely kills 2-3 things then and there, or from 5th onwards level toss in fireballs, or hypnotic patterns to shut down or kill dozens of enemies.

That is an effective use of resources (and your action). Twirling around in place and using your action to dodge and your reaction to blow a slot to simply not get hit is a waste of what you're actually good at as a wizard.

 

[auburn2]

No you're not!

Why on earth would monsters attack a PC that is not attacking, is dodging and poses no threat?

Because she is a caster for one and does pose a threat, and/or he can't get around her easily. This is like asking why would he attack anyone in the front when you can go around him and get to squishy characters in the rear. If it is a choke point they can't get around her unless they use the optional rules. If they use the optional rules they can try overun, if they have decent strength they have a good chance of winning. Tumble is not really an option for most enemies as the bladesinger has advantage on acrobatics.

Dodge does not eliminate an AO and if you don't attack the bladesinger the bladesinger uses no spells slots at all AND still gets an OA. And if she has sentinel feat she not only gets an AO you but pins you there when you try to walk past her. Or if she has war caster makes you take weapon damage and extra cantrip damage (assuming she doesn't just hit you with a full blown spell).

If you really want to get around her, the best way is to attack until she throws a shield and then move around. Alternatively you can disengage or have one enemy move and draw a reaction then other enemies go around her without it.

It is the same as getting around any character in the frontpositioning themselves between the enemy and the characters they are protecting. The players in the back can move too and so can the bladesinger (with a10' bonus to boot). You move around bladesinger, she gets an AO, then allies back up, then she moves around you and gets in front of you again ..... If you don't dash and you don't attack the character next to you, said character can simply follow you and is in position to make another AO next turn while the rear area memebers keep backing up and keep shooting.

Yeah sure those other things are options too, but why waste a 3rd-level spell on fireball or hypnotic pattern to end a fight in one round when you could make it a 3-round fight and probably lose no spells at all or only a 1st level slot if you get unlucky? Also I will note hypnotic pattern is pretty difficult to use against large numbers unless you are in the front of the party or win initiative. If you are casting that from that back you are generally either going to catch other party members in it or cast it off to the side so it does not get a lot of enemies. Hypnotic pattern is one of the offensive spells my bladesinger uses often.

Your point about the Barbarian is a good one, but that is not her job, not her role.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because he is a caster and does pose a threat, and/or he can't get around him. This is like asking why would he attack a fighter.

If the fighter was just dodging, I'd have my monsters ignore him as well!

For all the good that does the party. Instead of dodging, he should be fighting!

If you don't attack the bladesinger the bladesinger uses no spells at all AND gets an OA. And if she has sentinel feat you cant' move.

We've already covered this. Not that it matters, and how many Blade singers have Sentinel in their build (a feat that AGAIN would be so much better on a Barbarian!)

If you really want to get around her, the best way is to attack until she throws a shield and then move away.

Nah, I'd simply have monster 1 move past you and start wailing on the two ranged PCs in the party to shut them down.

You can make an AoO if you want to, but then you cant shield, and being up the front of a party of ranged PCs, you're likely surrounded by several other monsters (on a d6HD class), and the ranged PCs still get threatened and attacked.

The remaining monsters can then walk past you, or simply wail on you, likely a combination of both.

To make a 'sticky' PC in 5E, you want to draw attacks (compel enemies to attack you by presenting as a dangerous target, and a hittable one), not skyrocket your AC so high, while otherwise doing nothing but dodging so the DM and the monsters never bother to even try to hit you.

5E combats are over in around 3-4 rounds, and the best thing you can do is take an enemy out of the fight asap to reduce the enemies overall action economy as opposed to your own parties action economy. Focusing on a single enemy at a time to drop that enemy ASAP, reduces return attacks from those enemies, and lowers resource expenditure elsewhere (HP attrition, healing spells, HD).

Blade singers are not melee combatants. They're wizards with a decent defensive ability, and the ability to engage in melee in a absolute pinch. Running one into melee all the time is a liability for the rest of the party.