D&D 5E rogue-bladesinger?

auburn2

Adventurer
I'm not having it both ways!

Enemies will ignore the Bladesinger (who is doing NOTHING offensively, and just Dodging and spamming defensive spells) and will instead attack the other PCs (who die).

The encounter is balanced around you actually being present and doing something.
you are having it both ways. To start with she chooses what to do every single round,she does not go into a battle and say "i am dodging for 10 rounds". She can choose to dodge if 4 Orcs and two Orogs are attacking her. She can choose not to dodge if they are not.

Let me get this straight - if she is doing something other than dodge they will attack her. If she dodges than they will never attack her. So I can make the enemy just run back and forth from me to another party member and then I can make them run from the other party member back to me by doing something else while he dodges. So the party can get them to spend the whole battle running back and forth from one PC to another and taking AOsy simply by taking a dodge every time they get close? SWEET!

I think we are going to do that next game. Next time we see a fight leave half the party bbehind and just get two party members to stand 35' away from each other. Whichever PC is closer to the enemy takes dodge so they run to attack the other PC. Then they switch next round so they run back to attack the first. All the enemy does is just run back and forth between the two party members to make certain they ignore the one taking dodge. After all, they are never going to bother attacking a character using dodge. I can't wait to play in your game.

Oh also, she can fireball them in round 1 like you want and then go back to using dodge when they turn around to attack her .... or are they going to ignore her again because she is taking dodge?

And by the way dodge is an action. It is in the rule book it is "doing something". It isn't there for no reason and if it was useless it would not be an action. The reason it is in the rulebook is it was used in playtesting.

By the way when I DM I have enemies use dodge all the time to kill sneak attack.


Blur would be a waste, because all it does is waste an action making you harder to hit.
It "wastes" an action making me near impossible to hit. Moreover I can win that fight without using a 3rd level spell if I cast blur. So I still have fireball or anther 3rd level spell for a tougher battle.

You cast Blur and enter Bladesong, and the Orcs just ignore you and go for the other PCs that are actually hurting them.
No they won't, not on the first round. Not with any DM I have played with.

If you used that action for Fireball then all the Orcs die, and the Orogs are seriously crippled (every single monster takes 8d6 damage (28 points) of damage).

If I use that action for fireball I use more of my limited resources for this battle than if I use blur. I can kill these orcs and orogs with blur and cantrips or even blur and weapon attacks.

Wut? It deals 28 damage to every single Orc in the room (well... within the 20' radius sphere) , likely killing the Orcs (even if they make their saves) or at least leaving all but one seriously injured (1 HP left) and seriously injuring the Orogs for easy clean up by your allies this round.
It deals 28 damage to every single orc in the radius of the spell if they miss their save. On average 1-2 will make their save. By the way, yes I can likely target all of them, but I can't likley target all of them if someone else in in the front of me and mixed up with them (unless I target him too).

This is one way to play it, but I only get 2 3rd level slots, or 3 with AR and I think it is a waste when we don't have to use it.

Im disturbed you claim to play Wizards all the time with two other Bladesingers, and dont know how fireball works.
I understand fireball and I understand the math. You said it "will kill all the orcs". If I do average damage the exact chance of that happening is 17.850625% in another words over 80% of the time the fireball will not "kill all the orcs" with average damage. On average 8 in 20 orcs will make their save against DC14 and have 1hp remaining. 8 in 20 is 1.6 in 4 or on average or one to two orcs that survive the fireball .... which is what I said.

It could kill them all with good rolls (either on damage or on saves) or they all could live with bad rolls.

If the remaining 1 Orc and 2 Orogs use their actions to wake up their 3 sleeping allies (45 HP, upcast sleep, averaging 5's on the d8's) you've just negated 8 Great-axe attacks (2 from each Orog, and 1 from each Orc) for an entire round, buying a whole extra round of offence for the rest of your party to slaughter them, plus you stopped the Orcs from using their Bonus action Aggressive ability to Dash and swarm the party (of ranged PCs).

And I accomplished nothing. If I take dodge I effectively negate 8 great axe attacks too. If I take blur I effectively negate 8 great axe attacks and don't waste a 3rd level spell.

And by the way you are assuming above average rolls to put 3 to sleep.


If the party Wizard (5th level, knows Fireball, Counterspell, Sleep, Shield, Blur, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Scorching ray, utility spells) used his action to Dodge (instead of lobbing in a fireball) on an encounter with 4 Orcs and 2 Orogs, then unless he was deliberately conserving resources for a BBEG fight later that day, fireball was too risky due to the Orcs being among the PCs, or running low on Slots because of earlier encounters, he's not doing his job properly.
I am deliberately conserving respources for tougher fights. One 5th level character should be able to beat this encounter. It is not a tough fight (unless you make it tough by being stupid). A whole party shuld do it with ease. And the orcs are going to be among the PCs unless you keep the other PCs out of the way.
 
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auburn2

Adventurer
@auburn2

Imagine a hypothetical party of 5th level PCs.

1 - Half Orc Bear Barbarian, GWM feat, Greataxe. Likes to rage for harder encounters, makes liberal use of Reckless and GWM.
2 - Vuman Thief Rogue - Sharpshooter feat Fighting initiate [Archery] - hand crossbow, rapier, daggers, Aim action available from Tashas. Likes to keep his distance, Aim and Sharpshoot.
3 - Dwarf War Cleric - Maul, Resilient [Con] feat, likes to cast Bless early to help the Barb Rogue and Bard land SS/ GWM attacks. Occasionally falls back on Spirit Guardians and Spiritual weapon, and a heal bot. Helps out in melee with his Maul.
4 - Clineage Swords Bard - TWF (Katanas [longswords]), Dual wielder feat, Mobile. Likes to mix use of Bardic inspiration for damage, mobility and helping other PCs land those big hits. Occasionally drops in a Hypnotic pattern when the going gets really tough.
5 - Elf Wizard.

Which Wizard is more useful to this party - a Bladesinger 5 (who spams bladesong and dodges relying on defensive magic) or an Evoker/ Diviner/ War Mage 5 (who hangs back with the Rogue and blows things to smithereens from a distance)?
That is great except I have never played with a party with that makeup.

One party I play with a bladesinger has a human battlemaster/fey warlock multiclass, a halfling assasin/vengance Paladin multiclass and a human swashbuckler/fey warlock multiclass. We also at times have a 5th member, a dragonborn barbarian/battlemaster/diviner triple class character play with this party.

The other party I play a bladesinger with has a dwarven evoker, a human knowldege cleric/warmage multiclass, and a half-elf assasin/hexblade mutliclass.
'
The one in the first party is the one who got hit only twice in 6 levels of play. The one in the 2nd party is the one who has sentinel.

I will note I do as good a job blowing things to smithereen because I am at the front and can position myself bettter to do it. The evoker does as well as he can sculpt spels and because of that he doesn't lose much being in the back, but if he was a diviner or warmage I would do a better job simply because of where I am standing during a fight (and I do do a better job than the cleric/warmage in the same party).

One other thing to note - In both these games we roll abilities using a published method from 1e where players choose the 1st level class before they roll. They take 3 out of x dice but x changes for each ability based on what class they choose and is higher on main abilities. However, they can't switch scores, so you can have a Barbarian that rolls an unlucky 14 strength and a 13 constitution and a very lucky 18 intelligence. The method is set up so that does not usually happen but it does at times. After 1st level from there you have to build your class around your abilities. Players have much better ability scores in general but they have no direct control over which abilities are high.
 
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you are having it both ways. To start with she chooses what to do every single round,she does not go into a battle and say "i am dodging for 10 rounds". She can choose to dodge if 4 Orcs and two Orogs are attacking her. She can choose not to dodge if they are not.

OK. You see 4 Orcs and 2 Orogs aprox 20 feet away from you. You're a 5th level Bladesinger (Elf Sentinel feat) armed with a whip. Your AC at present is 16 (Dex 16 and Mage armor). Your Int is also 16. It's your turn. You have 3 allies next to you (all of them ranged, or casters, and thus squishy in melee but with good spike damage) and they go after the Orcs etc.

It's the first encounter of the day (longish dungeon level ahead, you're on a doom clock, expect six or so encounters). All your resources are available to you.

What do you do?
 

auburn2

Adventurer
OK. You see 4 Orcs and 2 Orogs aprox 20 feet away from you. You're a 5th level Bladesinger (Elf Sentinel feat) armed with a whip. Your AC at present is 16 (Dex 16 and Mage armor). Your Int is also 16. It's your turn. You have 3 allies next to you (all of them ranged, or casters, and thus squishy in melee but with good spike damage) and they go after the Orcs etc.

It's the first encounter of the day (longish dungeon level ahead, you're on a doom clock, expect six or so encounters). All your resources are available to you.

What do you do?

What am I trying to do? Why are we here at all? Why did I see them from only 20 feet away and why the heck is the rest of the party so close? Are there any chokeepoints? What specific classes are my allies?

Probably charm person on the leader if I have it prepared or friends if I have it and not charm person. If I have neither I probably go without it but along the same line and try to buy time by talking. The answers to the questions above drive the answer though.

Really if this is your game though and it turns hostile it is easy - just tell my allies to take dodge and move away from me and it is garaunteed the enemy won't follow them. They might take a hit the first round before they get a chance to dodge, but after that they are garunteed to be ignored and the enemy will get out of the way and let them move back out of the meleet to a safe distance. When they are a safe distance away they can start to attack again.
 
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What am I trying to do. Why are we here in this room at all?

Rescue an Elven princess before the evil Orc Shaman who abducted her sacrifices her to his evil God Gruumsh at midnight, finalising a ritual that permanetly blinds every Elf from your kingdom (including you) as Corellion once blinded Gruumsh.

A Moonblade (+1 Finesse longsword, possible other powers to unlock), your ancestral weapon that you (to date) have been unable to move from its ancient resting place in the Ruins of Myth Drannor where you found it, has urged you to complete this quest to prove yourself worthy of defending the kingdom (and wielding it)

Midnight is just 4 hours away, and your target lies in this ruin somewhere, protected by magic, and Orc guardains and other foul monsters.

Your party have just entered a 40 x 40 room after entering the dungeon, and descending some stairs in a 10' wide hallway. A door on the other side leads deeper into the ruin.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
Rescue an Elven princess before the evil Orc Shaman who abducted her sacrifices her to his evil God Gruumsh at midnight, finalising a ritual that permanetly blinds every Elf from your kingdom (including you) as Corellion once blinded Gruumsh.

A Moonblade (+1 Finesse longsword, possible other powers to unlock), your ancestral weapon that you (to date) have been unable to move from its ancient resting place in the Ruins of Myth Drannor where you found it, has urged you to complete this quest to prove yourself worthy of defending the kingdom (and wielding it)

Midnight is just 4 hours away, and your target lies in this ruin somewhere, protected by magic, and Orc guardains and other foul monsters.

Your party have just entered a 40 x 40 room after entering the dungeon, and descending some stairs in a 10' wide hallway. A door on the other side leads deeper into the ruin.
Ok easy. Sounds like the orcs are the dungeon guards. If I can I talk while my party backs up. If there is no feasible reason for us to be there, I go into bladesong, take disengage and go right past the orcs to the door on the other side and throw it open, my move is 40 so I make it in one turn without dash. So now I am behind the orcs and opening the door to the temple they are guarding. Depending on the exact positioning and ho many OAs I face I might take bladeward instead of disengage or I might take dash and just go straight through the door and start looking for the princess.

I am still pissed at my party for being so close by the way. The rogue being close I could handle but not the rest of them and I am likely going to take damgage because of it..

So the now it is the bad guys turn. They can go after the girl invading the temple or go after the party or split up and do both. I think they likely do the latter if it is my DM. Assuming dash was too risky and I am still in the room - with the wall I think only 4 can attack the bladesinger in melee and those 4 probably do. The other 2 either attack the bladesinger with their javelins (I think they have javelins right?) or they go after the other party members who were stupid. We are going to say they go after the party members.

Round 2 the party members retreat through the door they came in, using disengage if necessary, the bladesinger takes diseengage and goes deeper into the complex. Presumably the orcs follow her, but she has more movement than they do so she is outpacing them. She moves 35' keeping them out of melee range, they do throw javelins, but she has cover from those in the rear and none hit. Now the party is fighting 2 enemey and hopefully can handle them

Round 3 the bladesinger uses tumble and goes back through the four enemy following her, she has advantage on this roll and a higher dexterity and is probably proficient. She takes 2 or 3 OAs so this is risky even with a high AC. Alternatively if she has it she could use misty step here, get on the other side without an OA, take dash action and go all the way back to the front door this round. She is not going to do that though

Hopefully her allies have dispatched at least one of the two that stayed with them and hopefully they are still alive. The party now controls the chokepoints, something they would have had in round 1 with better positioning. From here on the fight is easy because the enemy can't get to the squishy characters.

That is how I could play it with a really stupid party and still use minimal resources. I probably use 1-2 shield spells and can probably finish the fight with no more spells.
 
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Ok easy. Sound like the orcs are the dungeon guards. Assuming there is no feasible reason for us to be there, I go into bladesong, take disengage and go right past the orcs to the door on the other side and throw it open, my move is 40 so I make it in one turn without dash.
Err, OK.

You see another room, 40' long. There are doors on the left (east) and the right (west) about 20' in from the doorway where you now stand. A cracked and weathered statue of Gruumsh sits in the middle of the room.

It's now the Orcs turn.

Both Orogs advance to the glass cannon crossbow expert Rogue archer, and attack him twice. His AC is 15. They swing at +6 hitting him three times, for a total of 33 damage. He uses uncanny dodge against one attack, reducing the total damage to 28. He had 39 Hit points, and is now down to 11.

An Orc races over and finishes the job, hitting him and bringing him down to zero, rolling 9 on his Greataxe damage dice of d12. The Orogs and Orc then advance to the remaining 2 PCs, threatening them all.

Under orders from the Orogs, the other three Orcs turn to you, and charge, making three attacks in total. One hits vs your new AC of 19. The other two miss wildly.

I presume you want to shield, so that's a spell slot used (plus 1 x bladesong).

On the other PCs turns, the hunter Ranger (the other ranged glass cannon PC) dops Hunters mark on an Orog, and attacks twice with his Longsword (he's now threatened, and cant use his bow without disadvantage). He gets incredibly lucky, hitting twice, and dealing 21 points of damage.

The Rogue fails his death save.

The Cleric goes 'screw this' and drops a Spirt guardians, dealing 13 damage to both Orogs and 6 to the Orc (it made its save) and calls you back, warning you you are going to alert the whole dungeon if you go off on your own, and get everyone killed.

Its now your turn. 3 unwounded Orcs block your passage behind you.

What do you want to do?
 

Round 2 the party members retreat through the door they came in, using disengage if necessary, the bladesinger takes diseengage and goes deeper into the complex. Presumably the orcs follow her, but she has more movement than they do so she is outpacing them.

Orcs move 60' (they can move as a bonus action with the aggressive trait).

If my PCs and Monsters did as you suggested, you'd now be stuck 80' in the dungeon, surrounded by Orcs, and with them screaming for help (and reinforcements), and the rest of the party having fallen back up the stairs leading to the exit.

But my PCs and Monsters did not do as you suggested. They did what they did above. Not that the players had much choice as the Orcs went straight after you did in initiative order, and half of them assaulted the larger force, while the other half went after the lone Elf on the suicide run.

Its now your turn, you're in the doorway between two rooms. The Orcs are in a swirling melee with your friends behind you, one of them is down, spirit guardians is bogging the Orcs down, and three Orcs currently threaten you, blocking you from retreating to help your companions.

The Cleric is screaming for your help, and imploring you to stop your assault before you draw the attention of the whole damn dungeon. Your friend (the Rogue) is bleeding out on the floor 40' behind you with an Orc standing over him with a greataxe in hand, ready to deliver a killing blow.

What do you do?
 

auburn2

Adventurer
Err, OK.

You see another room, 40' long. There are doors on the left (east) and the right (west) about 20' in from the doorway where you now stand. A cracked and weathered statue of Gruumsh sits in the middle of the room.

It's now the Orcs turn.

Both Orogs advance to the glass cannon crossbow expert Rogue archer, and attack him twice. His AC is 15. They swing at +6 hitting him three times, for a total of 33 damage. He uses uncanny dodge against one attack, reducing the total damage to 28. He had 39 Hit points, and is now down to 11.

An Orc races over and finishes the job, hitting him and bringing him down to zero, rolling 9 on his Greataxe damage dice of d12. The Orogs and Orc then advance to the remaining 2 PCs, threatening them all.

Under orders from the Orogs, the other three Orcs turn to you, and charge, making three attacks in total. One hits vs your new AC of 19. The other two miss wildly.

I presume you want to shield, so that's a spell slot used (plus 1 x bladesong).

On the other PCs turns, the hunter Ranger (the other ranged glass cannon PC) dops Hunters mark on an Orog, and attacks twice with his Longsword (he's now threatened, and cant use his bow without disadvantage). He gets incredibly lucky, hitting twice, and dealing 21 points of damage.

The Rogue fails his death save.

The Cleric goes 'screw this' and drops a Spirt guardians, dealing 13 damage to both Orogs and 6 to the Orc (it made its save) and calls you back, warning you you are going to alert the whole dungeon if you go off on your own, and get everyone killed.

Its now your turn. 3 unwounded Orcs block your passage behind you.

What do you want to do?
That is not how it goes. The party made stupid decisions by not being spread out to start with, they are not going to make more stupid decisions in the battle. I clearly said they retreat back through the door and you have them engaging in melee and going nova, casting third level spells and hunters mark .....while watching the rogue bleed out no less?

Round 1: Bladesinger and enemy do like above.
The Rogue gets killed round 1. He lost initiative (for some reason) and the enemy got great rolls. He is doomed, Two of the Origs and one of the orcs can get to him and kill him. They got 4 out of 5 hits when they should have statistically hit less than 3 out of 5 ... but luck is real so he is down. He is also obviously not a scout or arcane trckster or he would still be alive even with those great rolls by the enemy. The more significant point here is he is down whether I have a bladesinger or a barbarian or any other character class and more or less regardless of what I do. Without wasting slots there is nothing that could have been done to stop that. If I waste slots with fireball it still happens. Fireball to start round 1 and the 1 orc and 2 Orogs remaining alive go kill the Rogue. Or they go kill the bladesinger because she did not bother with any defense. We are going to bring the Rogue back though, so it is not that big a deal, you will see.

The Ranger and the cleric did not do what I said they would do in your example. I very clearly said they would retreat through the door, why would the ranger use a long sword when he is a bowman, and why would he waste hunters mark? He has fewer spells than the Wizard. And why would the cleric use a spell that does no damage this turn while leaving the Rogue bleeding? Since 3 of them attacked the Rogue at least one of these two PCs have no one threatening him.

Cleric: We will say no one is threatening the cleric. Your description of SG is incorrect. Spirit guardians does no damage on the turn she casts it It does damage on the Orogs/orcs turns if they start in range or enter the range. Regardless - she does not cast SG, what the cleric really does is uses healing word on the rogue and then backs up through the doorway like I said she would. She then casts sacred flame on an orc but he makes his save (continuing bad luck for the party).

Ranger: Screw a longsword! The ranger backs up and takes 1 OA from the Orc threatening him. Since they hit the rogue 4 out of 5 times we will assume they miss the ranger. From the doorway after he backs away he uses his bow and kills one of the Orcs and hits an Orog. He is not wasting a slot with Hunters Mark. His BA goes unused, but if he was going to use it it would be ensnaring strike not hunters Mark anyway.

Rogue: He lost initiative it is now his turn and he is back up thanks to the cleric. He takes disengage, backs up 5 feet. Kills the Orog who is already injured and then backs up further to get behind the Ranger. Note this assumes he has enough movement to do this. If he doesn't he takes dash action. It should be close, but we will assume he does have enough movement since they literally just entered the room last turn.

Now we are set for round 2. The Ranger is 5 feet out the doorway with the rogue and cleric behind him. 1 Orog and 1 Orc are dead. The Bladesinger is in the opposite doorway with 3 orcs on her.

round 2:
bladesinger: We will assume the bladesinger does noth have thunderwave. She tumbles through the orc in front of her and moves across the battlefield to position herself 5 feeet from the entry door, between the enemy and the Ranger. We will assume one of those OAs even makes it through on a critical and does 20 damage ... ugh bad dice, she is really unlucky ...... She is now 5 feet from the entry door and draws her dagger she is holding a dagger and a whip and can get an AO either from 5 feet or from 10 feet.

Enemy: All four turn and attack the bladesinger as they can't make it around her to the ranger without taking an AO and only two can do that even taking an AO. All miss (another shield is used)

Cleric: moves up, stands next to the Ranger and uses spirit hammer and sacred flame on an Orc. Damages it for 12 (bad rolls again).

Ranger: moves to the side for a clear shot, takes out two uninjured orcs and moves back.

Rogue: tries similar. He is using crossbow expert and he does 24 damage to the Orog with SA but misses the wounded Orc on the second shot (continuing bad rolls).

Round 3: We now have 1 Orog and 1 Orc remaining, both injured, the orc with 3hp left. They are toe-to-toe with the bladesinger. The Ranger and everyone else behind her on the other side of the doorway. Bladesinger is near death because of the one critical that slipped through, Rogue is near death. Ranger and cleric are unscathed.

Bladesinger: Note an important point here. One of these orcs is injured and she could easily kill it with an attack or cantrip. With GFB she has a slight chance of killing both enemies if she attacks the Orog with it and rolls a crit and the orc dies no matter what. But defense is the better play. If she kills just the Orc she might die this round with another lucky hit. If she doesn't attack she can be virtually assured she doesn't die while still taking the enemies melee attack on her party away this round with equivalent action economy. Her party is going to win this round the point now is staying alive. The bladesinger takes dodge and moves behind the Orog and orc so that he is on the edge of her whip reach. She takes two OAs but they both miss because they have disadvantage. So ranger is in the door 10 feet from the enemy. Bladesinger is on the opposite side 10 feet from them. Rogue and Cleric are behind Ranger.

Now tell me what you do? Battle is over this turn regardless.

We will say Orog attacks the Ranger (bladesinger is dodging so this makes sense he won't attack her right). He gets hit with Sentinel and he can't move. He now has 13hp left.

Orc attacks Ranger and hits for 10 points.

Cleric kills orc with spirit hammer. Cleric, Ranger and Rogue kill wounded and immobilized Orog

So we have a battle where the party was really stupid in terms of positioning and despite being stupid and getting consistently poor rolls we lost 4 first level spells (2 shield, 1 cure, 1 spirit hammer) and are down 62hp (most of it in round 1) and one bladesong. Form an action economy point of view, despite the awful positioning the bladesinger ate up 8 attacks (7 actions) over three rounds that all missed and would have been enough damage (80) to down two more party members if they had been used on others and connected .... and at the risk of being redundant this was after putting them in awful position to start the battle. Think this through - the enemy used 13 actions in the example battle above (6 first round, 5 second round, 2 third round). Over half of those actions were wasted on the bladesinger. Even in the first round when you called their move and they downed the rogue with lucky rolls, 3-of-6 or half of their actions on that round were still wasted on futile attacks on the bladesinger. Without her movement and drawing three of them away they might have killed the Rogue outright or severely bit into one of the other party members.

Put the bladesinger in the door with the party behind like she should have been to start and we lose less. The party should have never allowed this. The party should be behind the bladesinger all the time. The only exception is the Rogue when scouting and using stealth, and going through a door is not that.

What should have happened is the bladesinger opens the door and sees the enemy, backs up and blocks the doorway. The cleric casts guidance on the Bladesinger in round 1 and then again every time it is used. She does not even need to go into bladesong, she only takes dodge and the two archers behind her shoot (with -2 due to cover). Two enemy are in melee with her every round, for the first round another four can throw javelins with -2 or -5 to hit because of cover but not much else. The two guys in melee hit her 1 time in every 17 attacks. So once every 4-5 rounds if they are Orogs or once every 8-9 if they are orcs in the front (the fight won't last 8 rounds). Assuming the Orogs are the ones who go into melee first she uses 3 shields on average in a 5 round fight and gets hit once for 10hp damage. Alternatively she could have used bladesong and probably used no spells and got hit once or used 1 shield and bladesong and not got hit at all. That is how to win that fight easier. To be honest the best thing for the enemy to do is to not both attack but rather have one one enemy use help to try to kill the disadvantage and have the other guy have a small but significant chance of hitting, or try to grapple and move her out of the doorway (that is the reason for guidance and it is difficult with her having a better dex +1d4). This will make them hit more often while she is not in bladesong or mover her to surround her and get to the others, but it will kill their action economy.
 
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That is not how it goes.

Yes it is. You're doing you. I'm doing the monsters (and the other PCs, who go after them). You dont get to dictate who tanks you and who doesnt, thats up to the DM (in this case, me).

The PCs were in typical formation, heading down a 50' long and 10' wide hallway leading down some stairs, that ended in a door. Opening the door revealed the initial 40' wide room with a door opposite it, and the Orcs, triggering initiative.

The initiative order is: you went first. The Orcs went next. Then came the Ranger, Rogue and Cleric.

On your turn you took the disengage action, entered Bladesong, and ran 40' across the room, weaving through the Orcs and splitting the party, before opening the door on the other side, revealing the adjacent room (with the statue and doors to the east and west this time).

The Orcs (next in the initiative order, as clearly explained to you in the example above) then acted, with 3 (2 Orogs and 1 orc) going to the main force of PCs, and the other three racing off to deal with you.

As a result of you racing off, the Orcs were able to easily close with the PCs, dropping the Rogue.

The Rogue has failed his 1st death save, one of the Orogs is badly wounded, another is wounded, and the Orc is also looking pretty messed up (but from the looks of it, about to cut off the Rogues head). Spirit guardians is currently active on the Cleric (and luckily he could see you when he cast it, so you're excluded from the effect).

You have three Orcs on you, blocking your access to the room behind you where your friends are.

Its now your turn. The Orcs go next.

What do you do?
 

@auburn2
Same scenario, but would you like your turn again, starting from 'you open the door and see 6 orcs in the middle of the room; roll initiative.'

Same scenario as above, but we can take it from turn 1 of round 1 (you).

The Orcs go next. The Cleric (he's slow) is next to you, the Rogue and Ranger at the back of the formation.
 

To make this a lot easier for you, your answer should be 'I cast fireball'.

That kills all the Orcs, and badly wounds the Orogs, who likely cant kill you (AC 16, 21 with shield) or the Cleric (AC 18) this turn, before getting pasted by the rear Archers (Rogue and Ranger) ending the combat in 1 round, before the Cleric has even had a turn.

The Cleric then heals you (or him) and on you go.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
@auburn2
Same scenario, but would you like your turn again, starting from 'you open the door and see 6 orcs in the middle of the room; roll initiative.'

Same scenario as above, but we can take it from turn 1 of round 1 (you).

The Orcs go next. The Cleric (he's slow) is next to you, the Rogue and Ranger at the back of the formation.
This shows very poor door-opening practices on the part of the party, and extremely poor defensive positioning on the part of the orcs and orogs.

Grouping up near an internal door of a defended structure and opening it without any idea of what is on the other side, or taking any defensive precautions (like precast spells), is indeed a D&D caricature, but it's pretty clear from @auburn2's posts that that's not how their table plays the game.

It sounds like at your table, encounters often begin with everyone within 30' of each other, and thus your observation of the inability of the Bladesinger to draw fire is accurate at your table. But if a party has a nigh-unhittable Bladesinger, they can use that to their advantage by making sure other other characters are less accessible just by using distance.

Assuming that the time pressure precludes standard door procedures (e.g. rogue sneaking up and listening, then reporting back with intel to formulate a proper breaching plan) the safest way to open that door blind is to have the Bladesinger precast Blur, then open the door while the rest of the party is in full cover at the top of the staircase you described. Given the moronic enemy guard formation, you are correct that Fireball is the optimal plan: with the time pressure killing the enemies quickly in the scenario you've described is more important than killing them efficiently. But if the orcs have instead wisely spread out throughout the room using furniture as cover (or in a wide-open room putt half the force on the same wall as the entry door, with the other half blocking the next door), the optimal move for the Bladesinger is to be "armored" recon: use Bladesong, spend an action calling out to the other PCs the enemy locations, then physically block the open doorway (or close the door and flee if the defenders were overwhelming.) The party can then safely move forward and use its superior ranged firepower to remotely dominate the most important feature of the room: the next doorway leading further into the structure.
 

This shows very poor door-opening practices on the part of the party, and extremely poor defensive positioning on the part of the orcs and orogs.

Its a party of a Wizard, Ranger, Cleric and Rogue in formation in a 10' wide hallway, opening a dungeon door and fighting Orcs in the room beyond.

I almost couldn't get more 'standard party in dungeon doing standard dungeon stuff' if I tried.

Assuming that the time pressure precludes standard door procedures (e.g. rogue sneaking up and listening, then reporting back with intel to formulate a proper breaching plan) the safest way to open that door blind is to have the Bladesinger precast Blur, then open the door while the rest of the party is in full cover at the top of the staircase you described.

You now have an isolated Wizard with a spell pre-cast (with a 1 minute duration) and the rest of the party 50' behind and up a staircase and unable to even see into the room, let alone support the Wizard. The Cleric with his 25' move needs to dash just to get down there, and as long as the Orogs stay back other PCs cant even see them.

If the room had some kind of AoE monster in it, or Save or suck monster in it, the party are a round away from helping the wizard. Also, the Wizard would want to pray there is nothing in the room with blindsight (ignores blur) and also that he wins initiative vs the rooms occupants.

In this case you know its Orcs sitting around playing cards (or whatever} in the middle of the room.

Thanks to your tactics, a few might now run off and alert the rest of the dungeon for reinforcements, and there is little the Wizard can do about it.

Instead, the Orcs need to be put down fast and decisively.

Given the moronic enemy guard formation, you are correct that Fireball is the optimal plan: with the time pressure killing the enemies quickly
Its not just time pressure that is paramount (and they have 4 hours, so they actually have time for a Short rest or two), its resource management.

Fireball likely gets the job done with the least party resource drain, preserving slots and hit points for the 5-5 encounters to come.

Dashing through the room cost the PCs a 3rd level slot from the Cleric, 39 HP from the Rogue, a use of Bladesong, and a shield spell (to date). Unless the Bladesinger can stop the Orc from executing the (failed one death save already) Rogue before the Orcs have a turn (they go next), its also going to cost them a diamond and ANOTHER 3rd level slot on the Revivify for the Rogue (plus some HD and potions or more slots to heal the Rogue) plus the Orogs (who go first) might also drop the Spirit guardians (as they're likely to now attack the Cleric).
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Its a party of a Wizard, Ranger, Cleric and Rogue in formation in a 10' wide hallway, opening a dungeon door and fighting Orcs in the room beyond.

I almost couldn't get more 'standard party in dungeon doing standard dungeon stuff' if I tried.



You now have an isolated Wizard with a spell pre-cast (with a 1 minute duration) and the rest of the party 50' behind and up a staircase and unable to even see into the room, let alone support the Wizard. The Cleric with his 25' move needs to dash just to get down there, and as long as the Orogs stay back other PCs cant even see them.

If the room had some kind of AoE monster in it, or Save or suck monster in it, the party are a round away from helping the wizard. Also, the Wizard would want to pray there is nothing in the room with blindsight (ignores blur) and also that he wins initiative vs the rooms occupants.

In this case you know its Orcs sitting around playing cards (or whatever} in the middle of the room.

Thanks to your tactics, a few might now run off and alert the rest of the dungeon for reinforcements, and there is little the Wizard can do about it.

Instead, the Orcs need to be put down fast and decisively.


Its not just time pressure that is paramount (and they have 4 hours, so they actually have time for a Short rest or two), its resource management.

Fireball likely gets the job done with the least party resource drain, preserving slots and hit points for the 5-5 encounters to come.

Dashing through the room cost the PCs a 3rd level slot from the Cleric, 39 HP from the Rogue, a use of Bladesong, and a shield spell (to date). Unless the Bladesinger can stop the Orc from executing the (failed one death save already) Rogue before the Orcs have a turn (they go next), its also going to cost them a diamond and ANOTHER 3rd level slot on the Revivify for the Rogue (plus some HD and potions or more slots to heal the Rogue) plus the Orogs (who go first) might also drop the Spirit guardians (as they're likely to now attack the Cleric).
The grouped-up-near-the-door formation may be "traditional" but that is not the same thing as universal. At your table, a nigh-unhittable Bladesinger might be useless. At a table that does not only use "traditional" tactics there is more room to make good use of their Bladesinger.

Yes, the alternative tactics I described have risk, but breaching any door blind is a risk. The nigh-unhittable Bladesinger is better able than most characters to survive unknown risks, but the "traditional" tactics you've described fail to leverage that capability, and instead subject the whole party to the unknown risks, rather than focusing them on the party member most likely to survive them. Assuming that the party will not leverage the Bladesinger's capabilities to their advantage seems a poor way to evaluate the potential contribution of @auburn2's build.

With regards to a one-round delay for recon after opening the door, if that delay is outcome determinitive, then the party is already doomed--it would be simple for the enemies to station an orc in full cover in the next room to run for help, ensuring that the PCs couldn't stop the enemy's call for backup. (And if the enemy isn't the type to position a runner in advance, then delaying six seconds for recon isn't going to make them more likely to send a runner.)
 

The nigh-unhittable Bladesinger is better able than most characters to survive unknown risks,
No, he's not. He's a Wizard with high AC.

but the "traditional" tactics you've described fail to leverage that capability, and instead subject the whole party to the unknown risks,

The party is stronger together than apart. Our Cleric cant do anything meaningful (bless the PCs at the back and move down the hallway? No spirit guardians? A round or two of running to get to the Wizard to heal him etc.

rather than focusing them on the party member most likely to survive them. Assuming that the party will not leverage the Bladesinger's capabilities to their advantage
Its not up to the party to leverage it. Its up to the monsters (and DM). Unless the party has some way of forcing the PCs to attack the Wizard then he cant leverage it.

He relies on monsters flailing away at his AC (and the DM putting a ton of attack roll dependent monsters in the adventure to begin with).

You realise you're literally requiring the Wizard to be up the front, alone, opening doors, wasting his spells on defence, and dodging.

Let that sink in for a bit.

My argument is the Wizard would be a lot better utilised, being a Wizard.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
No, he's not. He's a Wizard with high AC.



The party is stronger together than apart. Our Cleric cant do anything meaningful (bless the PCs at the back and move down the hallway? No spirit guardians? A round or two of running to get to the Wizard to heal him etc.


Its not up to the party to leverage it. Its up to the monsters (and DM). Unless the party has some way of forcing the PCs to attack the Wizard then he cant leverage it.

He relies on monsters flailing away at his AC (and the DM putting a ton of attack roll dependent monsters in the adventure to begin with).

You realise you're literally requiring the Wizard to be up the front, alone, opening doors, wasting his spells on defence, and dodging.

Let that sink in for a bit.

My argument is the Wizard would be a lot better utilised, being a Wizard.
Class role appears to be very important to you. It's not to me, and I suspect it's also not to @auburn2. If I'm in a party that has a character that can occasionally make themselves nigh-unhittable, I'm going to leverage it by striving, on those occasions, to ensure that the enemy's only valid target is that character. Whether that's by using terrain, hiding, full cover, social engineering, or simply putting the character far in front (supported from a distance by long-range characters) the nigh-unhittable character is a resource for me to leverage to engage the enemy while limiting their ability to fight back.

It doesn't matter to me if that character is a fighter or a wizard--what matters is their effective HP total (as modified by their AC and resistance to being critically hit) and their ability to survive other threats (like elemental damage and debuffs). A Bladesinger who is using their defensive capabilities happens to be pretty good at those categories. And if I don't think I'm going to be able to make the Bladesinger the only valid (or at least, most appealing) target in a particular encounter (e.g. wide-open space, highly mobile enemies), then I'll employ a different strategy instead, and use the Bladesinger in a different role.

Doors are a natural chokepoint, however, which are ideal for limiting the enemy's melee options. Sure, they might choose not to attack the Bladesinger if the Bladesinger can't be hit, but with the Bladesinger in front blocking the doorway the melee enemies can't hit anyone else either. Maybe the enemy opts to use less-effective ranged attacks against the other PCs (who have cover from the Bladesinger). If so, that's still better for the party than a melee brawl, especially with the example party where the PCs have dominant ranged capability.

So yes, I'm absolutely going to put the Bladesinger up front when blindly breaching a door of a enemy structure. Of the four available characters, they are the most survivable option, and I don't dare have the rest of the party be in AoE range of the point character. Sure, the Bladesinger is taking a huge risk, particularly if there are multiple enemy spellcaster behind the door, but against those spellcasters it would be even worse to have the whole party standing in a group by the door, ready to be taken out by AoE.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
Yes it is. You're doing you. I'm doing the monsters (and the other PCs, who go after them). You dont get to dictate who tanks you and who doesnt, thats up to the DM (in this case, me).

The PCs were in typical formation, heading down a 50' long and 10' wide hallway leading down some stairs, that ended in a door. Opening the door revealed the initial 40' wide room with a door opposite it, and the Orcs, triggering initiative.
If the PCs are in "typical formation" means they are all behind the bladesinger, not all in the room like you said. That is fundamentally different from your initial set up. They are behind the bladesinger with 5 foot spacing - bladesinger, cleric, rogue, ranger. So ranger is 30 feet down the hall from the door. Bladesinger opens the door sees the Orcs causes initiative, the orcs and orogs get their over the top extremely high rolls, the bladesinger backs up into the hallway just beyond the threashold of the door, goes into bladesong and takes dodge action.

Go ahead it is your turn.

The orcs and Orogs all saw the bladesinger some of them saw the cleric too, 10' behind her. Most can't see the other two PCs yet and ALL of the PCs except the bladesinger have either a wall or one or more characters between them and the enemey.

I will point out if you as the DM make any of the PCs be stupid again or try to cast spirit guardians I am going to cast levitate on them and put them on the ceiling until the battle is over. If the cleric feels a need to cast a spell in round 1 have her cast bless.
 
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auburn2

Adventurer
Grouping up near an internal door of a defended structure and opening it without any idea of what is on the other side, or taking any defensive precautions (like precast spells), is indeed a D&D caricature, but it's pretty clear from @auburn2's posts that that's not how their table plays the game.
I am not the one who decided that, that is how flamestrike set it up the first time. We open the door and just all file in like we are on a stroll through the park and got set up inside the room 20' from the enemy. I was furious about that because it put us at a huge disadvantage and I thought that was clear in my earlier diatribe. It is absolutely not what my group would do. As far as precast spells, it is mage armor and probably bladeward and guidance on the bladesinger, not using any additional slots as we presumably don't know what if anything is on the other side of the door despite the scouting.

If we are expecting a big fight, absolutely blur like you said, but that is heavy if you don't know you will be fighting right away.

As for opening with fireball it is the most efficient (although honestly I probably have hypnotic pattern and counterspell prepared). This is the first encounter of the day though and it is 2 CR2 and 4 CR1/2 monsters and they are attack only monsters without save or suck abilities. We can take them easy if we play smart using minimal resources. So I am probably not going to use my third level spell in the first turn. If they try to flee then maybe yes ... or maybe not.
 
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auburn2

Adventurer
@auburn2
Same scenario, but would you like your turn again, starting from 'you open the door and see 6 orcs in the middle of the room; roll initiative.'

Same scenario as above, but we can take it from turn 1 of round 1 (you).

The Orcs go next. The Cleric (he's slow) is next to you, the Rogue and Ranger at the back of the formation.
It is not the same scennario, because now the party is spaced out behind me where they should be. They are no longer the dumbest party in the history of d&d. I put the move above.
 
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