D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Minigiant]

Oh jeez. No. Halflings get left out because they’re the only race that is iconic but also was invented by Tolkien and otherwise only really a D&Dism, ie, they have no thematic link outside of D&D and Middle Earth.

And I’ve played a pretty wide breadth of games. You should probably get past your habit of assuming that people who disagree with you just don’t understand what you’re talking about or don’t have enough experience of whatever. Your position isn’t inevitable or self evident.

But that's my point. Halflings are allowed to have these believability issues in D&D because the fanbase wants them in and doesn't care if they have issues.

But once you leave D&D and LotR, halflings don't get a free pass and often get dropped or downgraded for these issues.
This is why halflings on many homebrew and new settings look very very different from base D&D ones.

 

[turnip_farmer]

Oh jeez. No. Halflings get left out because they’re the only race that is iconic but also was invented by Tolkien and otherwise only really a D&Dism, ie, they have no thematic link outside of D&D and Middle Earth.

And Warhammer. Warhammer is, of course, based on D&D originally, but it dropped a lot of the D&D baggage. There is mention of gnomes in early Warhammer sourcebooks, but they dropped gnomes because everyone knows that gnomes are stupid. Halflings, however, have been a staple throughout every Warhammer edition, however, since everyone knows that halflings are cool. So much so that they invented Space Halflings when they made a science fiction version of Warhammer; which are still there today, even though they've pretty much given up on the Space Dwarfs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe humans should have walls, militias and so on if the world is as dangerous as you say it is. But the maps that show Ten Towns don't show walls around every town. There's no mention of militias or anything similar in the writeups on humans. If you assume humans do such a thing to survive, there's no evidence they are doing anything that halflings could not do as well.

So either every single race takes precautions such as militias and it's just assumed and redundant therefore page count is not wasted on it or by default the assumption is that the world is not as dangerous as you assert.

So this assumption that humans would survive but halflings would not is just a big nothing burger.

Hear me out for a second.

If I said that there was a human militia with chain mail and pikes guarding a town, would people tell me that that goes completely against human nature? Would people tell me that according to the books, human knights and court mages simply aren't assumed? If I said that the human sheriff of a town was the veteran of the King's army, would it seem strange to you?


But what about halflings?

And armored contigent of halflings as a militia seems entirely bizarre to people. Enough that claiming one should exist got be accused of wanting to make DnD Grimdark and not worth living in. Halflings don't have knights. They don't have court mages. If I told you that you were in a Shire, full of halflings, and I said that the sheriff was the veteran of the King's Army, you know what would be the first question I would expect? What King? Because he has to be a veteran for an army that was led by a human, an elf, or a dwarf.

That is a pretty major difference. If I said a human town was walled, people wouldn't be accusing me of anything. The armed guards welcoming you at the gates to the town is a well-worn trope. It fits... but it doesn't fit halflings. For whatever reason, people don't want them to have defenses, guards, soldiers, any of it.

Yes, those human towns should have walls. They should have something like a sea wall too, to defend against the oceanic threats, but the oceans are big enough and contested enough I can buy there isn't a huge budget for defense in that direction that overrides the need for sailing vessels. But even if they don't at least it is not against their lore and image to have armed guards ready to defend the people.

 

[Minigiant]

And Warhammer. Warhammer is, of course, based on D&D originally, but it dropped a lot of the D&D baggage. There is mention of gnomes in early Warhammer sourcebooks, but they dropped gnomes because everyone knows that gnomes are stupid. Halflings, however, have been a staple throughout every Warhammer edition, however, since everyone knows that halflings are cool. So much so that they invented Space Halflings when they made a science fiction version of Warhammer; which are still there today, even though they've pretty much given up on the Space Dwarfs.

Fantasy halflings lost almost all its official support from Games Workshop. I don't think their rules has be updated for decades.

And Space halflings were reduced to a minor ally race for proper humans and are not like the fantasy ones.

That's my point. Halflings rarely stay in the main cast once you leave D&D and LotR because of how their lore and mechanics look.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So suddenly mules can't be used to carry grain and trade goods? I'm sure this critter will be relieved.

View attachment 131996

These arguments are just so ludicrous. Carrying loads is what mules have always done and still do to this day.

P.S. Instead of "ignore poster" I need "ignore thread". But saying mules can't be used to carry goods to market ... it's just dumb.

Of course you can use a mule.

But you know what carries more? A cart. That's why traders who could afford it got carts, pulled by oxen, to carry their things.

Also, look at where that mule is. That is a trail. A trail that can be followed. And one that isn't super hidden to the point that a professional tracker couldn't find it and follow it.

 

[Maxperson]

There is a difference between "here is a gun, use it to protect yourself" and "I will actively work to keep criminals away from your home so you never have to defend yourself"

There is a difference in those two ways to protect someone, yes. That both are ways to grant protection is a fact, though. The difference is, "I grant you the protection of this gun. Here." and "I grant you the protection of this police officer."

But, when confronted with "they would follow the paths" or "they would follow the smoke" you responded with the fact that they are protected by their gods. They aren't taught techniques, they aren't taught magic, they aren't shown how to build a device, the problems are actively solved by the direct interference of the Gods.

As I said before, you are overestimating(grossly) the visibility of chimney smoke. I grew up in a town of 400 where everyone used wood stoves in the winter. From half a mile or a mile away from town, you could no longer see the smoke. Between the trees and smoke dissipation, you have to be almost on top of a town to see it like that. Orcs are not going to be sitting up on a mountain two weeks travel away and see smoke from a Halfling village.

 

[Maxperson]

But that's my point. Halflings are allowed to have these believability issues in D&D because the fanbase wants them in and doesn't care if they have issues.

But once you leave D&D and LotR, halflings don't get a free pass and often get dropped or downgraded for these issues.
This is why halflings on many homebrew and new settings look very very different from base D&D ones.

And they are often not dropped or downgraded. Why do you think that every fantasy system has to have Halflings or else Halflings don't make sense? It's not a dichotomy like that. Fantasy games are allowed to not have Halflings without that somehow being an indictment of the race.

 

[tetrasodium]

Halflings are great in an army! They know good foods from simple ingredients, and they’re wonderful for troop morale. Best of all, they don’t break from fear as much as other folk, which means the line doesn’t break from fear as much.

Seriously guys fear is like...one of the most important factors in war.

I dunno, to hear max tell it they don't even have an interest in simple things like spices & they draw the line at "generous" portions of unsalted boiled or baked vegetables/grains with personally brewed "drink" made entirely with things they grew themselves. Pointing out the unusual combo of salt & fertile farmland problem was an inconvenient thorn he chose to ignore so I guess they both trade for expensive salt* and don't trade for it going by his minced words both do & do not use carts & wagons stance. I'm not sure that unseasoned boiled/baked vegetables & meats spoiling due to lack of preservation are things I'd consider "good foods".

* PHB157 lists the cost of 1lb salt equal to 5lb wheat or 2.5 chickens... 2lb of salt for an entire goat

 

[Maxperson]

Of course you can use a mule.

Right!

But you know what carries more? A cart. That's why traders who could afford it got carts, pulled by oxen, to carry their things.

You know what's easier to track and requires a road? A cart! You know what you will choose not to use if you don't want to be tracked or have a road to your village. A cart!

It may be more work, but so what. Better more work than to risk the village.

 

[Minigiant]

And they are often not dropped or downgraded. Why do you think that every fantasy system has to have Halflings or else Halflings don't make sense? It's not a dichotomy like that. Fantasy games are allowed to not have Halflings without that somehow being an indictment of the race.

I didn't say that fantasy games must have Halflings. I am saying it is an weird few games keep Halflings but snag tons of D&Disks.

And no. Few games, tabletop or video, that aren't just attempting to copy D&D full on keep Halflings as a major race.