D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Maxperson]

So. . . can we conclude this thread?

Gnomes are superior. They have magic, cute pets, creative defenses, fun inventions, and awesomely annoying accents. Rock Gnomes are awesome crafters, Deep Gnomes are grumpy miners, and Forest Gnomes are tiny illusionists that can make tiny entrances to their underground homes inside hollowed-out trees.

What do halflings have? Well, um, they're short, so they can move through larger creatures' spaces. They are also extremely brave, for some strange "reasoning", and they're lucky . . . which only "makes sense" on the Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk. Lightfoot Halflings . . . are even more stealthy than the already stealthy base race, Stout Halflings . . . are trying to be dwarves for some reason, and all the other subraces are setting-specific. (Ghostwise Halflings are cool, but their telepathy isn't given an explanation, Dragonmarked Halflings are both cool because Eberron, and Lotusden Halflings are awesome and what every PHB halfling should aspire to be). They also protect their settlements by . . . no explanation.

Gnomes have an explanation for how they protect their settlements (illusion magic, underground settlements), Humans have some (Guards and Soldiers), Elves have multiple (magic, weapons, speed, etc), Dwarves have multiple (underground/strongholds, weapons, armor), and so on.

Halflings just don't work as well as gnomes. They're not distinct enough from humans, have lore issues in non FR settings, and have basically only one stereotypical archetype (rogue), while the Gnome race has multiple (artificer, illusionist, druid/ranger, rogue). They feel like they're only here because of Tolkien and only because of Tolkien, not because they have any business being in D&D. They're a sacred cow that either needs to be dumped or changed to be more interesting and sensical.

Ruling: Halflings are inferior.

Halflings have Druids and Clerics as well. And given their wanderlust and ties to nature, Ranger is a good fit as well.

 

[Don Durito]

Or maybe the halflings made the land safe themselves.

Yeah. Just because halflings are peaceful and unwarlike now, doesn't mean they weren't very different a few generations back.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah. Just because halflings are peaceful and unwarlike now, doesn't mean they weren't very different a few generations back.

This does say it cites a legend, but it implies that Halflings have been this way for a very long time.

"One such hypothesis cites a legend that speaks of a document containing ancient elven writings-a series of essays spanning centuries. Among the many arcane and mundane topics addressed in this tome, the elves set down thoughts regarding the power of innocence."

 

[Don Durito]

This does say it cites a legend, but it implies that Halflings have been this way for a very long time.

"One such hypothesis cites a legend that speaks of a document containing ancient elven writings-a series of essays spanning centuries. Among the many arcane and mundane topics addressed in this tome, the elves set down thoughts regarding the power of innocence."

Oh well. I was thinking in terms of real life time. History in fantasy worlds always moves a lot slower so just multiply all time frames by 10.

 

[turnip_farmer]

This is the stupidest thread I've ever seen

The Shire Moot Glenvale is a peaceful place because there are aren't any monsters nearby. I don't know what sort of mental breakdowns some of you go through when whipping up a setting that such things become problematic.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Off the top of my head,..Obfuscation, let's see, changing terrain or growing vegetation to block line of sight, hiding path entrances exits or the path entirely, perhaps underground or through tree roots or something. Misdirection, false signage, false pathways, installation of something that draws the eye elsewhere away from the direction of the village or the parts to it. Disguise, various combinations of earthworks and vegetation.

Would they need help, sure. The point is that have the knowledge for how to avoid notice and those skills are applicable.

And you're accusing me of handwaving while apparently going with ever Gnomish village includes an 11th level caster whose illusions are utterly impenetrable

Okay, now we are getting to some ideas.

Most of which seem to involve growing a screen of trees around the entire village thick enough to block line of sight or building hills. Both of which are long, arduous processes that would take decades to finish. And it somewhat ignores some of the issues beyond that.

Let's say that you don't grow a forest around your village, and instead go and build a village in the forest. Sounds much easier right? Well, to get actual farmland you would need to clear out the forest. If I assume a very small homestead of 2 acres per farm, ten families and their houses, looking at close to 50 acres. Which is roughly 50 acres of forest you need to clear. That is a rather noticeable dent in the forest.

And that doesn't make it safe, especially considering that many goblin tribes and other forces seem to find ruined castles in the forest with some regularity, and the largest castle in the world is only 13 acres of land.


Or maybe they have tunneled over a mile underground, to make a small road underground to avoid anyone finding them, but that involves there being no other real way to find the village, like being in a secluded valley between some hills. But... that doesn't do anything if someone happens to go over a hill, or if they go around it to the inside instead of the outside. And, that underground path would need to have an entrance. You could just grow over the entrance with bushes so thing you can't see the cave mouth, not sure how you'd get livestock through it, but that isn't even the bigger problem. You know who tends to find out of the way caves to live in? Goblin tribes.

And, since the underground road isn't visible, you can't see people approaching. So if anyone did find it, they are going to be on top of you before you know anything is wrong.


And remember, this isn't just talking about a single village. We need to extrapolate this for every halfling shire. They all either found or created deep forests and hidden valleys for them to live in, and unless they are deep in civilized lands, those are exactly the sort of places that we tend to find monsters.

Is enjoying tasty food enough to go to war for it in the human write up? I don't see it. Is "exemplar of ambition" in it? Is halflings enjoying delicious food in the write up? Hell, is there a note in the human entry of the PHB about delicious halfling food and their potential if they had ambition?

It seems you're only willing to adhere to the writeup when it's convenient for your argument.

As I said, if you want to change human nature, that is fine, but I am willing to assume that humans in DnD are humans.

The Opium Wars were England companies going to war with China over Tea.

The Exploration of the Americas was because of the Ottomans controlling the spice trade routes, and European powers wanting to get cheaper spices.

The Ottoman empire seemed to partially destroy itself in a war over wine.

Egypt was conquered for grains

Pope went to war over salt, as did a lot of other people at various points in history


Humans could have easily said, "You know, I am content with rosemary and thyme, I don't need cumin and cayene for my food" but we didn't. We fought and died over these things.

Yes, halflings are specifically called out to love food. And humans aren't specifically called out, but I'm willing to bet that humans are humans. And taking the stance that humans wouldn't go forward in cultivating crops that could provide them with spices, when that was literally the biggest driver of trade in the history of the world, and literally reshaped the world as we know it due to the imports of foreign foods, I'm going to say that doesn't hold water.

 

[Chaosmancer]

"On nights when the moon is full, especially during the planting and harvesting seasons, the elders tell stories about Sheela Peryroyl. After becoming a hero though her glorious adventures, Sheela joined with the earth, fusing her spirit with the flowers, plants, and trees so she could better provide for her kin."

So does Chauntea for the humans. Oh, and Pelor

Elebrin Liothel for the Elves, oh and Rillifane Rallathil

Sharindlar for the Dwarves according to some sources


Dang, guess everyone has plant magic. Oh, wait, no. Halfling Dieties just actively interfere in the world more. Again.

It wasn't worth clarifying when you posted it the first time. Better just to agree that it wouldn't happen and let you worry about it.

Right, say they are unstoppable, really mean that no one would bother stopping them, really mean something else.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you were to compare elite dwarven paladins, clerics, or whatever to a halfling with only it's basic racial features, yes, it would be similarly disingenuous.

So, what?

All hallfing small farmers are home to elite druids? Elite Bards? Elite Wizards? Elite masters of earthworks and camoflauge? Elite masters of cunningly disguised secret entrances?

Are halflings perhaps known for their clever building techniques? Exceptional skill in woodworking?

What we are told is that halflings are farmers. And they live out of the way. That's it.

I'm not being disengenous to assume dwarves have master stonesmiths, they say that. Elves and gnomes are highly skilled in magic? We are told that. I don't know why you want to accuse me of some malfeasance for just acknowledging that the books provide us with answers for some races, and they don't give any of that for halflings.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Okay, now we are getting to some ideas.

Most of which seem to involve growing a screen of trees around the entire village thick enough to block line of sight or building hills. Both of which are long, arduous processes that would take decades to finish. And it somewhat ignores some of the issues beyond that.

Let's say that you don't grow a forest around your village, and instead go and build a village in the forest. Sounds much easier right? Well, to get actual farmland you would need to clear out the forest. If I assume a very small homestead of 2 acres per farm, ten families and their houses, looking at close to 50 acres. Which is roughly 50 acres of forest you need to clear. That is a rather noticeable dent in the forest.

And that doesn't make it safe, especially considering that many goblin tribes and other forces seem to find ruined castles in the forest with some regularity, and the largest castle in the world is only 13 acres of land.


Or maybe they have tunneled over a mile underground, to make a small road underground to avoid anyone finding them, but that involves there being no other real way to find the village, like being in a secluded valley between some hills. But... that doesn't do anything if someone happens to go over a hill, or if they go around it to the inside instead of the outside. And, that underground path would need to have an entrance. You could just grow over the entrance with bushes so thing you can't see the cave mouth, not sure how you'd get livestock through it, but that isn't even the bigger problem. You know who tends to find out of the way caves to live in? Goblin tribes.

And, since the underground road isn't visible, you can't see people approaching. So if anyone did find it, they are going to be on top of you before you know anything is wrong.


And remember, this isn't just talking about a single village. We need to extrapolate this for every halfling shire. They all either found or created deep forests and hidden valleys for them to live in, and unless they are deep in civilized lands, those are exactly the sort of places that we tend to find monsters.




As I said, if you want to change human nature, that is fine, but I am willing to assume that humans in DnD are humans.

The Opium Wars were England companies going to war with China over Tea.

The Exploration of the Americas was because of the Ottomans controlling the spice trade routes, and European powers wanting to get cheaper spices.

The Ottoman empire seemed to partially destroy itself in a war over wine.

Egypt was conquered for grains

Pope went to war over salt, as did a lot of other people at various points in history


Humans could have easily said, "You know, I am content with rosemary and thyme, I don't need cumin and cayene for my food" but we didn't. We fought and died over these things.

Yes, halflings are specifically called out to love food. And humans aren't specifically called out, but I'm willing to bet that humans are humans. And taking the stance that humans wouldn't go forward in cultivating crops that could provide them with spices, when that was literally the biggest driver of trade in the history of the world, and literally reshaped the world as we know it due to the imports of foreign foods, I'm going to say that doesn't hold water.

So you're end result here is, because the real world works in x ways, so must fantasy worlds..unless magic. You can choose to operate that way, but it's silly. That space you don't think halflings can hide us the same space your Gnomish illusions must hide.

And thank you for acknowledging that yes you are indeed going off book for your humans. Here's the thing if one race gets the benefit of thousands of years of actual history, and the setting guidance, and the other just has the 5 pages of setting guidance, the latter will of course seem diminished in the presence of the former. And by bringing in this extra-setting guidance background, you are doing precisely what you have accused others in this thread of doing when they state things are true that are not in "the book" for halflings.

 

[Gammadoodler]

So, what?

All hallfing small farmers are home to elite druids? Elite Bards? Elite Wizards? Elite masters of earthworks and camoflauge? Elite masters of cunningly disguised secret entrances?

Are halflings perhaps known for their clever building techniques? Exceptional skill in woodworking?

What we are told is that halflings are farmers. And they live out of the way. That's it.

I'm not being disengenous to assume dwarves have master stonesmiths, they say that. Elves and gnomes are highly skilled in magic? We are told that. I don't know why you want to accuse me of some malfeasance for just acknowledging that the books provide us with answers for some races, and they don't give any of that for halflings.

Perhaps assorted skills from adventuring, the experience of which has allowed the to "level up" beyond the capabilities of the basic descriptions of their race.

If I compared how 11th level halfling rogues or bards would protect their villages to how a common gnome would do it, that comparison would be similarly unfair.