D&D 5E Bladesinger/arcane trickster

[Adb0782]

Hello everyone,
its some days im thinking about this build for 3 specific reasons:

1) bladesinger need some malee damage boost
2) canning action work almost as well as mobile feat and help with booming blade on the extra attack
3) expertise is good for everyone while eventually evasion help with not get killed on fireball and similar and the magical ambush is very thematic.

This said, i came out with 2 different stats and Asi's progression and i would like to know which one of this options looks to be the better to play.
We can go like this assuming an hight elf (+2 dex and +1 int):

8 str
17 dex
14 con
16 int
10 wis
8 cha

here i can get as asi's: resilient (dex), resilient (con), +2 int, +2 int (or dex, cant decide, which looks to be a better choice?).

second options for stat and asi's is this:

8 str
16 dex
15 con
16 int
10 wis
8 cha

asi's would be: +2 dex, resilient (con), +2 int, +2 int (or dex)
in this way i have stronger con save and some more hp, at the cost of dex saving proficiency, that is good for dont die bcs of a failed save on fireball or dragon breath, howhever absorb elements and eventually evasion are already great to avoid this kind of things, so i probably can think about resilient (dex) only stopping at lv 5 AT, with evasion i probably dont need dex savings that much, as ill not be the "rogue" of the group.

about the lv progression i have 3 different options:

BS 6/AT 9/BS x
BS 6/AT 5/ BS x
BS 6/ AT 3/ BS x

I was considering also AT 7 but it delay asi too much, so i actually dumped it

The differences between the 3 options are very clear: AT 3 give me 9 lv spells (foreseigh, disaster blade...) and, more in general, better spells progression, canning action, expertise and only a 2d6 sneak attack (but its not optimal for asi's progression so i feel it like the less attractive between the 3), AT 5 make me lose the 9 lv spells but it let me anyway get things like simulacrum (probably the most broke spell of the game without considering wish, and the reason why sorcerers cry when they see a wizard), + 1d6 sneak attack (total 3d6) and uncanny dodge that with shield and absorb elements as reaction is less usefull than it can seem (its good only for halve not elemental damage that cant be stopped with shield...ill not use it so often i suppose, while is anyway still good to have it), LV 9 AT give me magic ambush, still a +2d6 sneak attack (total 5d6), other expertise and evasion, at the cost of simulacrum and spells above lv 6. In any case i think i can cast shadow blade with hight lv spell slots (or later in the game tenser transformation maybe) and get advantage from it or from the owl familiar, but while i can probably choose to dump 9 lv spells (that anyway come so far in the game) for AT benefits (as the bladesinger gonna love that stuff in my opinion), im not that sure about give up simulacrum that seem really too much good compared with anything else, as he can let the simulacrum do support stuff, while he go for dpr in malee (or with spells), he can even haste me while i use shadow blade, it can make me get an ally polimorphed while im still dealing damage in malee, he can take far from me people with nasty abilities and so on. At the same time im not so expert about magical ambush and i actually dont know on which spells he can get the best benefits from it.

Conclusion: AT 9 seem to be the most thematic path for this build, but im scared it gonna lose too much if compared with AT 5, so i would like to know your opinion about the build in general, the stat points buy and about the best lv progression to choose.
Thanks in advantage.

PS This is the spell list progression till lv 6:


Cantrips
Level 1 - Booming Blade (High Elf) | Green-flame Blade, Firebolt, Minor Illusion
Level 4 - Blade Ward

Spells
Level 1 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud
Level 2 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
Level 3 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image
Level 4 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Hold Person
Level 5 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Hold Person | Counterspell, Fireball
Level 6 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Hold Person | Counterspell, Fireball, Blink, Hypnotic Pattern

I'll add also an image of the character i created with a famous web site for build minis that let me create any position i want being possible to customize really everything and in the most dettalied way. He is not actually an hight elf but an homebrew race with the same stat bonus, living on floating cities in the sky and very linked with the wind. Here he is with his shadow blade and his focus arcano (the sphere). As you can see, he have a draconic eye. In this world dragons and draconic people are extincted, he has the soul of an ancient feather dragon that reborn inside him.

 

[Blue]

What level are you starting, and what level do you expect to get to?

You're talking about abilities like extra attack (Bladesinger 6th) and Evasion (Rogue 7) - these are higher level, and it will take a while to get there if you're starting low level.

One thing to think about when planning multiclassing is to make sure that (a) it's viable for every level you plan to plan, and (b) you have most of your payoff for a good chunk of your adventuring career - not just at the end. So you can enjoy what the build brings you in play.

Remember that spells know is based on your individual class level only. So stopping at bladesinger 6 and then taking a bunch of AT levels means you will not get 4th level spells until you go back to taking BS levels, even if you do get a slot at AT 3.

For a full caster, it's a big deal to delay your casting that much - what is AT bringing you worth the reduction in advancing slots and the stopping of advancing spells known?

Side note, the Resilient feat isn't one that allows you to take it multiple times, for your first progression.

 

[Adb0782]

What level are you starting, and what level do you expect to get to?

You're talking about abilities like extra attack (Bladesinger 6th) and Evasion (Rogue 7) - these are higher level, and it will take a while to get there if you're starting low level.

One thing to think about when planning multiclassing is to make sure that (a) it's viable for every level you plan to plan, and (b) you have most of your payoff for a good chunk of your adventuring career - not just at the end. So you can enjoy what the build brings you in play.

Remember that spells know is based on your individual class level only. So stopping at bladesinger 6 and then taking a bunch of AT levels means you will not get 4th level spells until you go back to taking BS levels, even if you do get a slot at AT 3.

For a full caster, it's a big deal to delay your casting that much - what is AT bringing you worth the reduction in advancing slots and the stopping of advancing spells known?

Side note, the Resilient feat isn't one that allows you to take it multiple times, for your first progression.

Well, ill start from lv 3, so till 6 or 7 its not that much.
The character is supposed to get lv 20 or anyway hight lv (15 maybe) as we ll play this campaign for very long.
I start from the assumption that in tier 1 ad 2 any wizard is kinda weak, bladesinger a bit less than other wizard probably, thanks to the malee. This build is made around shadow blade mostly of times (advatange = sneak attack), that grants also a good damage output with extra attack and booming blade. At lv 6 i already have 3rd lv spells, basically i need counterspell most of all and things like mirror image and blink, shield and absorb elements for survivability...and yea i delay things like bigby's hand, banishment (that is anyway not allowed in this campaign like many evocation spells), greater invisibility (which i dont need that much as ill be casting shadow blade and familiar for advantage) and even tenser transformation, that due the "you cant cast spells" its not so much better than shadow blade + familiar mostly of times. For this delay of 5 lv (or 9) and losing 8 and 9 lv spells (and maybe even lv 7 spells), i get canning action that is very nice with booming blade on extra attack (booming blade + bonus action disengage), expertise, 3d6 (or 5d6) malee damage with SA, so around 10.5 (or 17.5) damage per turn, few more hp and free spell slots for hight lv shadow blade. Of course i want to make this characther a bit more malee focused, i dont want give up all the support a wizard can give, but neither i want play this like any straight wizard, this is the reason for this buid.

Ps go straight aracane trickster cant be the way as it delay shadow blade to lv 7 and counterspell to lv 11...i was thinking straight bladesinger but as i said i want avoid to play like a straight wizard 90% of times.

 

[aco175]

I did find the Arcane Trickster ability to use mage hand to open locks and pick pockets ok and it helped a few times in other situations. At 13th level you can use it to gain advantage on attacks which is handy for backstab. It does not look like you will get that high level with it though.

I found the spell list limitations to force me into taking utility and defense spells. Shield, Invisibility, things like this. The PC was played more thief and less caster though, so the spells only assisted him in the thief part of things.

If you are planning to take AT for the casting part, I would skip it, maybe some of the other things like mage hand or thief abilities makes multiclassing worth it. Take it up to 3rd level, but 5th in any class grants cool things, so maybe 5th. But then at 7th another cool thing if you need to make dex saves a lot. You could go level 7/7 instead of 11/3, but 7/7 is not the same as any one at 14th level.

 

[auburn2]

Hello everyone,
its some days im thinking about this build for 3 specific reasons:

1) bladesinger need some malee damage boost
2) canning action work almost as well as mobile feat and help with booming blade on the extra attack
3) expertise is good for everyone while eventually evasion help with not get killed on fireball and similar and the magical ambush is very thematic.

I am playing a low level BS/Rogue now. I have not got into AT yet.

A couple points. You don't really need disengage and you certainly should not waste a feat on mobile. You are pretty difficult to hit in melee, if you have bladesong up just take the opportunity attack and have the enemy waste their reaction. If you don't have something else to do with your BA then use disengage, but if you can make an off hand attack or cast a BA spell just don't worry about it, you most likely will not get hit anyway

Fey touched is a great feat for this build. Get a +1 Int and you get a second level spell. The misty step spell is good because mixing AT and Wizard means you are going to get 2nd level slots before 2nd level spells. You can also get Hex with Fey touched which is not otherwise available to wizards or Rogues and you can use your 1st level slots to cast it in addition to the free cast. I think Shadow touched would work well too.

As far as spells go, I would put either absorb elements or shield as your AT non-illusion/non-enchantment. If you go to Rogue 3 first I would get shield there and then absorb elements whenever you do wizard 1. If you get Wizard before Rogue 3 I would take shield at Wizard 1 and then wait until Rogue 3 for Absorb elements.

You will always want both of these prepared, at least until you get to 7 levels in Rogue, at which point you can probably replace absorb elements. By having it as a known spell you don't have to use a wizard spot to preapare it.

 

[Adb0782]

I am playing a low level one. I have not got into AT yet.

A couple points. You don't really need disengage and you certainly should not waste a feat on monile. You are pretty difficult to hit in melee, if you have bladesong up just take the attack and make the enemy waste their reaction. If you don't have something else to do with your BA then use disengage, but if you can make an off hand attack or cast a BA spell just don't worry about it, you most likely will not get hit.

Fey touched is a great feat for this build. Get a +1 Int and you get a second level spell. The misty step spell is good because mixing AT and Wizard means you are going to get 2nd level slots before 2nd level spells. You can also get Hex with Fey touched which is not otherwise available to wizards or Rogues and you can use your 1st level slots to cast it in addition to the free cast. I think Shadow touched would work well too.

I will post a little more later I need to go right now.

Actually i cant make off hand attack bcs my DM want my character always have his "arcane focus" in his hand for cast a spell. So ill need to find some acquamarine for make a sword my arcane focus (or i dont know how else i can make a weapn become an arcane focus), after that ill certain use the off hand attack.
About spells, i still have only 2 second lv spell slots as im 3 lv, so its still not easy to cast shadow blade and mirror image in every fight, things will be better in 1 or 2 levels i suppose and gonna start to work well at lv 6 where ill get a big boost.
Fey touch is interesting (but why hex? its concentration, only for when i cant cast shadow blade?), but i need to think about stat and feats progression for put it in game, bcs it need to be changed from what i writed if i use it...ill post some idea later too.

PS how many levels of AT are you supposing to take?

 

[Benjamin Olson]

The big thing is deciding whether you want to be a Bladesinger who stabs extra hard, or an Arcane Trickster augmented with Wizard levels to be more Arcane and Tricky. There is really no spilt of these two subclasses that isn't solid. That said Wizard spells that really help with melee combat tend to be lower level (Greater Invisibility at level 4 being the highest major one) so if you are really a melee Rogue at heart the case can be made for anywhere from 2 to 7 levels of Bladesinger (and 8 if you need the ASI).

Meanwhile if you are more a Bladesinger just trying to augment your stabbing and sneakery I would go light on the Rogue. Try to get to level 2 Rogue somewhere around level 5, so that you can start disengaging after Booming Blade. Level 3 for Arcane Trickster is then, of course, a no brainer, though there is no particular hurry, and you are already a full level behind in spellcasting from where you would be so you might want to get in a few more Wizard levels first.

Anything beyond that though is seriously slowing you down (and if you actually were going to level 20 is decreasing the maximum level of spell you'll ever get access to). Bear in mind that multiclassing your also round the AT levels down for spell slots, so AT won't give you any more until 6th level and then none till 9th level. That's pretty tough if you are fundamentally a Wizard.

My own Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster was meant to be a more even split, but I stopped taking Rogue levels after getting to 3, because after that the tradeoff just gets steep if you are interested in actual Wizarding. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion lose some luster when you already have Shield and Absorb Elements (are they better, yes. Are they whole levels of spellcasting better, not so much).

Unless you know your campaign is going very high level, AT 9 is not a realistic goal if you also want a bunch of Wizard levels.

 

[Blue]

I played a pre-Tasha's Bladesinger 1-13 in Avernus. (Differences: 2 bladesongs per short rest instead of PB per long rest, and no ability to cast a cantrip as part of extra attack.) I have to say that there was not a level that I would rather have delayed advancing Bladesinger to pick up rogue level. I say plan what you want, but see how it plays and make the call as you level up.

 

[auburn2]

I played a pre-Tasha's Bladesinger 1-13 in Avernus. (Differences: 2 bladesongs per short rest instead of PB per long rest, and no ability to cast a cantrip as part of extra attack.) I have to say that there was not a level that I would rather have delayed advancing Bladesinger to pick up rogue level. I say plan what you want, but see how it plays and make the call as you level up.

This is generally my feeling. In terms of power a multiclassed BS is not going to be as good, I don't think there is any class you can take that adds more than another Wizard level. However, this is a roleplaying game and a BS/AT brings a lot to the table in terms of flexibility and cool role playing. It is not the force to be reckoned with that a single classed bladesinger is but is more survivable than a plain Rogue and has a ton of varied combat and role play options that the BS does not have.

The attack plus cantrip at level 6 is really awesome. To start with RAW it makes it so you can cast cantrips that normally take 1 minute, like mending, and cast them in half an action. Second you can attack and take bladeward giving yourself half damage for a round finally for a Rogue you can attack and then cast true strike to give yourself advantage on your first attack the next round (and enable sneak attack).

 

[Adb0782]

I am playing a low level BS/Rogue now. I have not got into AT yet.

A couple points. You don't really need disengage and you certainly should not waste a feat on mobile. You are pretty difficult to hit in melee, if you have bladesong up just take the opportunity attack and have the enemy waste their reaction. If you don't have something else to do with your BA then use disengage, but if you can make an off hand attack or cast a BA spell just don't worry about it, you most likely will not get hit anyway

Fey touched is a great feat for this build. Get a +1 Int and you get a second level spell. The misty step spell is good because mixing AT and Wizard means you are going to get 2nd level slots before 2nd level spells. You can also get Hex with Fey touched which is not otherwise available to wizards or Rogues and you can use your 1st level slots to cast it in addition to the free cast. I think Shadow touched would work well too.

As far as spells go, I would put either absorb elements or shield as your AT non-illusion/non-enchantment. If you go to Rogue 3 first I would get shield there and then absorb elements whenever you do wizard 1. If you get Wizard before Rogue 3 I would take shield at Wizard 1 and then wait until Rogue 3 for Absorb elements.

You will always want both of these prepared, at least until you get to 7 levels in Rogue, at which point you can probably replace absorb elements. By having it as a known spell you don't have to use a wizard spot to preapare it.

shadow touch with false life or inflict wouds looks better than hex (or am i missing something?), even misty step is really nice...but it mean end with 19 int and 20 dex i suppose, isnt it?...both path have good reasons in my opinion anyway...

The big thing is deciding whether you want to be a Bladesinger who stabs extra hard, or an Arcane Trickster augmented with Wizard levels to be more Arcane and Tricky. There is really no spilt of these two subclasses that isn't solid. That said Wizard spells that really help with melee combat tend to be lower level (Greater Invisibility at level 4 being the highest major one) so if you are really a melee Rogue at heart the case can be made for anywhere from 2 to 7 levels of Bladesinger (and 8 if you need the ASI).

Meanwhile if you are more a Bladesinger just trying to augment your stabbing and sneakery I would go light on the Rogue. Try to get to level 2 Rogue somewhere around level 5, so that you can start disengaging after Booming Blade. Level 3 for Arcane Trickster is then, of course, a no brainer, though there is no particular hurry, and you are already a full level behind in spellcasting from where you would be so you might want to get in a few more Wizard levels first.

Anything beyond that though is seriously slowing you down (and if you actually were going to level 20 is decreasing the maximum level of spell you'll ever get access to). Bear in mind that multiclassing your also round the AT levels down for spell slots, so AT won't give you any more until 6th level and then none till 9th level. That's pretty tough if you are fundamentally a Wizard.

My own Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster was meant to be a more even split, but I stopped taking Rogue levels after getting to 3, because after that the tradeoff just gets steep if you are interested in actual Wizarding. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion lose some luster when you already have Shield and Absorb Elements (are they better, yes. Are they whole levels of spellcasting better, not so much).

Unless you know your campaign is going very high level, AT 9 is not a realistic goal if you also want a bunch of Wizard levels.

GI is very good but it dont let me cast shadow blade.
with 2 dip i suppose i get too few sneak attack for be worth it, canning action is good but its not mandatory, while a better sneak attack can make me choose to be in malee more often but 1d6 or even 2d6 its just 3.5/7 damage more per turn, even with canning action its probably too few for dont just stay bladesinger.
Blade singer 6/ arcane trickster x maybe can work, but it will not get spells above the 3 lv (and so it will never use shadow blade at hight lv spell, while it should be the core of my build) and my group is a cleric, a barbarian, a monk a druid and this charcater...seem need more magic.

I played a pre-Tasha's Bladesinger 1-13 in Avernus. (Differences: 2 bladesongs per short rest instead of PB per long rest, and no ability to cast a cantrip as part of extra attack.) I have to say that there was not a level that I would rather have delayed advancing Bladesinger to pick up rogue level. I say plan what you want, but see how it plays and make the call as you level up.

My only doubt about this is: did you not end 90% of times just using it like any other wizard? Wasnt at a certain (early) point, malee attacks too weak for dont just cast anything else?