D&D 5E Bladesinger/arcane trickster

[auburn2]

Actually i cant make off hand attack bcs my DM want my character always have his "arcane focus" in his hand for cast a spell. So ill need to find some acquamarine for make a sword my arcane focus (or i dont know how else i can make a weapn become an arcane focus), after that ill certain use the off hand attack.
About spells, i still have only 2 second lv spell slots as im 3 lv, so its still not easy to cast shadow blade and mirror image in every fight, things will be better in 1 or 2 levels i suppose and gonna start to work well at lv 6 where ill get a big boost.
Fey touch is interesting (but why hex? its concentration, only for when i cant cast shadow blade?), but i need to think about stat and feats progression for put it in game, bcs it need to be changed from what i writed if i use it...ill post some idea later too.

PS how many levels of AT are you supposing to take?

RAW if the spell has a S or M he has to have an empty hand to cast it and M he either needs to have an arcane focus or a component pouch. He does not need the arcane focus in his hand, he just needs his hand empty, manipulating the arcane focus or component is part of the cast action. To do this you can drop your weapon after you attack with it or you can stow it as a free action if you have not used your free action.

Hex is a 1st level spell that lasts an hour and it combines with the cantrips you will be using. It is not as powerful as shadowblade by itself, but it will last longer, does not require a second level slot and works with the cantrips. Until you reach 6th level in BS, you will do more damage with hex and a cantrip than with shadowblade. Blur is another concentration spell you should think of getting.

One thing that nerfs shadowblade in this build is you can't use it to cast booming blade or green flame blade. Below 5th character level, using shadowblade you will do the same damage as booming blade with a Rapier (assuming the enemy moves) and without using concentration or a spell slot. Once you make 5th level (character level) you do more with booming blade and significantly more with Green Flame Blade (assuming 2 targets). When you get to 6th level in BS you can attack with the shadow blade, then casting booming blade using another weapon. Here and above shadowblade will outrun booming blade+hex although you have to game the two weapon concern you note above. In this I did not consider the advantage shadowblade can give in certain lighting.

I have a V. Human so I already have fey touched. My planned progression is R1-BS2-AT3-BS6-AT7 that will be 13th level and that is where the campaign will end.

 

[auburn2]

The big thing is deciding whether you want to be a Bladesinger who stabs extra hard, or an Arcane Trickster augmented with Wizard levels to be more Arcane and Tricky. There is really no spilt of these two subclasses that isn't solid. That said Wizard spells that really help with melee combat tend to be lower level (Greater Invisibility at level 4 being the highest major one) so if you are really a melee Rogue at heart the case can be made for anywhere from 2 to 7 levels of Bladesinger (and 8 if you need the ASI).

Meanwhile if you are more a Bladesinger just trying to augment your stabbing and sneakery I would go light on the Rogue. Try to get to level 2 Rogue somewhere around level 5, so that you can start disengaging after Booming Blade. Level 3 for Arcane Trickster is then, of course, a no brainer, though there is no particular hurry, and you are already a full level behind in spellcasting from where you would be so you might want to get in a few more Wizard levels first.

Anything beyond that though is seriously slowing you down (and if you actually were going to level 20 is decreasing the maximum level of spell you'll ever get access to). Bear in mind that multiclassing your also round the AT levels down for spell slots, so AT won't give you any more until 6th level and then none till 9th level. That's pretty tough if you are fundamentally a Wizard.

My own Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster was meant to be a more even split, but I stopped taking Rogue levels after getting to 3, because after that the tradeoff just gets steep if you are interested in actual Wizarding. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion lose some luster when you already have Shield and Absorb Elements (are they better, yes. Are they whole levels of spellcasting better, not so much).

Unless you know your campaign is going very high level, AT 9 is not a realistic goal if you also want a bunch of Wizard levels.

I think if you want to play a melee Rogue with great defense 6th level in Wizard is a nice stopping point. Agree with what you said about uncanny dodge and evasion, but if you stop at 3 you are missing an ASI at 4 and expertise at 6. For me expertise is the big reason to go past 3 and that is worth 2 wizard levels.

 

[auburn2]

My only doubt about this is: did you not end 90% of times just using it like any other wizard? Wasnt at a certain (early) point, malee attacks too weak for dont just cast anything else?

I played a single class bladesinger several times. I did not use it like any other wizard, really completely the opposite of a regular wizard. To start with she has more defensive spells in the build and fewer offensive spells. You do have powerfull spells you use to take down bosses and large numbers, but you are not using lowlevel offensive spells in every battle like most wizards. You are using low level defensive spells instead. The biggest difference in my games is she was in the very front, ahead of the martial characters even, where a traditional wizard is typically in the very back. When you deploy your nukes as a Bladesinger you do it from the front line.

Both of the bladesingers I have played were the character in the party that went into melee range first. They did not do a ton of damage up there unless they were throwing a lighting bolt or cone of cold or something but they were always the ones trying to draw the enemy attacks because they are very hard to hit. That is their role, get as many enemy as possible to atttack them and not other party members.

A lot of people on this board don't like that style but it works very well in my experience. A multi class rogue will not be as effective at that because you get less spells and will run out of spell slots to cast shield. You will need to play more like a Rogue and be tactical about where you insert yourself where a single class bladesinger charges straight into the thickest part of the battle.

 

[Blue]

My only doubt about this is: did you not end 90% of times just using it like any other wizard? Wasnt at a certain (early) point, malee attacks too weak for dont just cast anything else?

Between Bladesinging, Shield, and Absorb Elements, I was the least able to be hit. Getting into melee and keeping foes tied up was important. (Also, we found Bracers +2, so I dropped back from light armor to Mage Armor.) I was tanking more than damaging, though that was pre-Tasha's and being able to mix in a cantrip would have helped. That would have moved me to 4d8+14 plus 3d8 more on a move per turn. (d8+7 base with my +2 rapier, one with booming blade)

Avernus has a lot of magic resistant, multi-elemental resistant/immune foes. So anything with a save and much elemental damage was deprioritized. Helped keep me on track. But I also prioritized DEX over INT to help keep me on track.

The only thing that was more "standard caster" is that I had planned Concentration spells like Greater Invisibility to buff my fighting, but more often we I would be doing things like upcasting Fly on our melee characters (including myself) or throwing out a Wall of Force while we're fighting another Infernal War Machine. Counterspell I could like Shield or Absorb Elements - defensive magic fine with Bladesinging. Oh, an casting Dragon's Breath on my Familiar.

Some things I that I consider falling under bladesinging as much as "standard casting" includes reaction defenses liek Shield, Absorb Elements and Counterspell, and thinks like Transmute Rock to mire opponents while I was flying. And any spell that buffs my melee attacks.

Final battle with [REDACTED, but after the obvious] was fun - only one we got to prep for. We had a Heroes' Feast up, but I had up Fire Shield (Chill), Crown of Stars, and Tenser's Transformation. The last was the only casting of the game, and it nerfed me not being able to Misty Step or cast reaction spells enough that I probably wouldn't again, but it was pretty glorious since auto-advantage plus Elven Accuracy plus +2d12 forcde damage per hit turned me into such a powerhouse.

 

[Blue]

I played a single class bladesinger several times. I did not use it like any other wizard, really completely the opposite of a regular wizard. To start with she has more defensive spells in the build and fewer offensive spells. You do have powerfull spells you use to take down bosses and large numbers, but you are not using lowlevel offensive spells in every battle like most wizards. You are using low level defensive spells instead. The biggest difference in my games is she was in the very front, ahead of the martial characters even, where a traditional wizard is typically in the very back. When you deploy your nukes as a Bladesinger you do it from the front line.

Both of the bladesingers I have played were the character in the party that went into melee range first. They did not do a ton of damage up there unless they were throwing a lighting bolt or cone of cold or something but they were always the ones trying to draw the enemy attacks because they are very hard to hit. That is their role, get as many enemy as possible to atttack them and not other party members.

A lot of people on this board don't like that style but it works very well in my experience. A multi class rogue will not be as effective at that because you get less spells and will run out of spell slots to cast shield. You will need to play more like a Rogue and be tactical about where you insert yourself where a single class bladesinger charges straight into the thickest part of the battle.

I agree with everythign you say except about running out of Shield slots. When playing a single classed bladesinger I foudn that I was so much more efficient with slot use that I'd have plenty when the other casters in the party were tapped, so I ended up doing some more of the Utility casting like Knock and stuff. If you don't take on that role (or deal with locks another way ), your efficiency with slots and need for the low level ones should balance out being a few spell levels behind. Remember, low level spells top out quickly at four 1st level and three 2nd level - it's only the high level slots that keep growing, and they do slowly.

 

[Blue]

Bonus: Image of Vaeris Lianon and their owl familiar, Onyx.

BG: Descent to Avernus. Wizard (Bladesinger) levels 1-13

 

[Adb0782]

RAW if the spell has a S or M he has to have an empty hand to cast it and M he either needs to have an arcane focus or a component pouch. He does not need the arcane focus in his hand, he just needs his hand empty, manipulating the arcane focus or component is part of the cast action. To do this you can drop your weapon after you attack with it or you can stow it as a free action if you have not used your free action.

Hex is a 1st level spell that lasts an hour and it combines with the cantrips you will be using. It is not as powerful as shadowblade by itself, but it will last longer, does not require a second level slot and works with the cantrips. Until you reach 6th level in BS, you will do more damage with hex and a cantrip than with shadowblade. Blur is another concentration spell you should think of getting.

One thing that nerfs shadowblade in this build is you can't use it to cast booming blade or green flame blade. Below 5th character level, using shadowblade you will do the same damage as booming blade with a Rapier (assuming the enemy moves) and without using concentration or a spell slot. Once you make 5th level (character level) you do more with booming blade and significantly more with Green Flame Blade (assuming 2 targets). When you get to 6th level in BS you can attack with the shadow blade, then casting booming blade using another weapon. Here and above shadowblade will outrun booming blade+hex although you have to game the two weapon concern you note above. In this I did not consider the advantage shadowblade can give in certain lighting.

I have a V. Human so I already have fey touched. My planned progression is R1-BS2-AT3-BS6-AT7 that will be 13th level and that is where the campaign will end.

He wont allow me to drop the weapon and bring it again in the next turn as 2 free actions bcs he said only warlock have arcane focus on the sword and thats have to matter lol, but he allowed me to use booming blade on shadow blade, and anyway ill get acquamarine asap.
About hex, using it for 6 lv is good, but after that i dont think it can be changed anymore, but well, yea, i see your point here.

I think if you want to play a melee Rogue with great defense 6th level in Wizard is a nice stopping point. Agree with what you said about uncanny dodge and evasion, but if you stop at 3 you are missing an ASI at 4 and expertise at 6. For me expertise is the big reason to go past 3 and that is worth 2 wizard levels.

As i said this is a nice build for a rogue, and it can probably focus on shadow blade more than a straight bladesinger, with a kinda huge ammount of malee damage (one turn: 3d8 shadow blade + 1d8 second attack + 2d8 BB + 7d6 sneak +10 +1d8 hopefully off hand attack, for a total of 70 per turn with no crits) and probably being better than a pure arcane trickster all the way, so ill cosider also it.

I played a single class bladesinger several times. I did not use it like any other wizard, really completely the opposite of a regular wizard. To start with she has more defensive spells in the build and fewer offensive spells. You do have powerfull spells you use to take down bosses and large numbers, but you are not using lowlevel offensive spells in every battle like most wizards. You are using low level defensive spells instead. The biggest difference in my games is she was in the very front, ahead of the martial characters even, where a traditional wizard is typically in the very back. When you deploy your nukes as a Bladesinger you do it from the front line.

Both of the bladesingers I have played were the character in the party that went into melee range first. They did not do a ton of damage up there unless they were throwing a lighting bolt or cone of cold or something but they were always the ones trying to draw the enemy attacks because they are very hard to hit. That is their role, get as many enemy as possible to atttack them and not other party members.

A lot of people on this board don't like that style but it works very well in my experience. A multi class rogue will not be as effective at that because you get less spells and will run out of spell slots to cast shield. You will need to play more like a Rogue and be tactical about where you insert yourself where a single class bladesinger charges straight into the thickest part of the battle.

Yes i understand it, but you are just confirming that a bladesinger for deal damage mostly dont use a blade...and thats kinda weird in my opinion, i think he should alternate good or decent dpr with malee (i honestly dont know if compared with a barbarian or fighter it is near from this point but i think probably no, neither using spellcast abilities for focus on melee, bcs it have to be said that for stay in melee he need to spend resources that many other wizards dont need that much or that anyway they use much less often, keeping their slots much more free) and support party members (till get simulacrum that make he do both things in one turn! Bigby's hand and shadowblade together? he can, haste and shadow blade together? Yes pls! Make my ally become a Trex while using shadow blade? omg yes! Have shadow blade and haste both while the simulacrum cast again a spell in the turn that can be whatever and the character have a spell action plus an attack with shadow blade? thats near to be unbelieveble lol...), thats the bladesinger i have in mind.

Between Bladesinging, Shield, and Absorb Elements, I was the least able to be hit. Getting into melee and keeping foes tied up was important. (Also, we found Bracers +2, so I dropped back from light armor to Mage Armor.) I was tanking more than damaging, though that was pre-Tasha's and being able to mix in a cantrip would have helped. That would have moved me to 4d8+14 plus 3d8 more on a move per turn. (d8+7 base with my +2 rapier, one with booming blade)

Avernus has a lot of magic resistant, multi-elemental resistant/immune foes. So anything with a save and much elemental damage was deprioritized. Helped keep me on track. But I also prioritized DEX over INT to help keep me on track.

The only thing that was more "standard caster" is that I had planned Concentration spells like Greater Invisibility to buff my fighting, but more often we I would be doing things like upcasting Fly on our melee characters (including myself) or throwing out a Wall of Force while we're fighting another Infernal War Machine. Counterspell I could like Shield or Absorb Elements - defensive magic fine with Bladesinging. Oh, an casting Dragon's Breath on my Familiar.

Some things I that I consider falling under bladesinging as much as "standard casting" includes reaction defenses liek Shield, Absorb Elements and Counterspell, and thinks like Transmute Rock to mire opponents while I was flying. And any spell that buffs my melee attacks.

Final battle with [REDACTED, but after the obvious] was fun - only one we got to prep for. We had a Heroes' Feast up, but I had up Fire Shield (Chill), Crown of Stars, and Tenser's Transformation. The last was the only casting of the game, and it nerfed me not being able to Misty Step or cast reaction spells enough that I probably wouldn't again, but it was pretty glorious since auto-advantage plus Elven Accuracy plus +2d12 forcde damage per hit turned me into such a powerhouse.

Yea its for sure a good tank even with few hp (he suffer a lot cha savings, but cant have everything), even probably a sorceradin do it better and deal consistent damage more.
Spell buffing malee attacks are shadow blade, BB, GFB, maybe enlarge (just 1d4), Spirit Shroud, haste and tenser transformation, plus maybe some not wizard spells, a paladin spell that gives 2d6 damage, hunter mark, hex...but all require concentration, so, having to choose seem that mostly of times shadow blade looks better, or i can think about a very mobile build with longstrider, bladesong and maybe mobile feat (or maybe not), for a total boost of my speed up to 30 feet (plus for sure haste)...he ll become an anticaster, he ll still increase his AC, going to get the casters in the backline. This make this build haste and counterspell focused, so no shadow blade at least till lv 13, when simulacrum can haste me and probably would fit better with a TWF (even without the feat). Other way is cast shadow blade and give up haste, or maybe use GI and rapier, but this last one seem already suboptimal.

 

[auburn2]

He wont allow me to drop the weapon and bring it again in the next turn as 2 free actions bcs.....

Copy all. Dropping a weapon is not supposed to use a free action. Picking it up certainly does though. But your tabole is your table.

With Shadowblade after 6th level you would have good DPR in melee (your houserule on dropping weapons notwithstanding). It is not as good as a full martial character, but probably better than a single class Rogue. One thing to be aware of is blur is a go-to spell and you can't use that with shadowblade. If you are disengaging like a Rogue though you probably do not need to though.

I would definitely not get the mobile feat, you do not get hit enough to worry about attacks of opportunity. When I was playing my bladesinger at times I would actually purposely cause attacks of opportuinity so the enemy would use their reaction and our Rogue could dash past him without getting attacked. If you are multiclassed into Rogue you can take disengage to eliminate the OA or take dash for the extra movement. Keep in mind you get extra movement when in bladesong too.

As far as spell selection here are some pointers:
1st: shield, absorb elements (I would take this as Rogue spell), grease and rituals (detect magic, find familiar, identify, comprehend languages).

2nd: blur, shadowblade, tasha's mind whip, levitate. mirror image, darkvision if you don't have it, dragon's breath. Note levitate is an awesome offensive spell for a bladesinger - Levitate a melee enemy into the air, then take out a snickers while your fighters pummel him with arrows and crossbow bolts!

3rd level: blink, fly, haste, hypnotic pattern, fear, fireball, lightning bolt

4th level: fire shield, polymorph, mordenkanen's hound

5th level: cone of cold, bigby's hand, wall of force

 

[Adb0782]

Doing some more consideration:

seem that shadowblade is less good than what i thought for a pure bladesinger (at least till lv 13). If we conisder that from lv 3 to lv 6 its better to use BB and rapier and that from lv 9 he can use rapier and BB while he have bigby's hand in play at same time, we realize that before lv 13 he gonna use shadow blade just from lv 6 to lv 9. If we compare a lv 9 bladesinger using shadow blade and a lv 9 bladesinger using a normal rapier and bigby's hand we get this:

SB bladesinger will do, assuming he upcast SB at 5th lv slot, 4d8 (SB) + 1d8 Rapier + 3d8 BB (assuming he move) + 10 + 1d6 off hand attack = 53 (that seem good)
Bigby's hand bladesinger will do 1d8 rapier + 3d8 BB + 1d8 rapier + 10 +4d8 (bigby) + 1d6 off hand attack = 53

Same output also considering you can get advantage from the familiar, but in this case bigby's hand can give much more than just 4d8 damage.
From lv 11 being honest things can change a bit as, if this character find a nice sword (flametongue), use tenser transformation can be worth, but again we dump shadow blade. Lv 13 its just same, if you have a good sword tenser transformation is better, and still more as you have the simulacrum casting for you, but if you didnt find any magic sword than from this lv you can probably use SB.

If we compare it with bladesinger 6/AT x we get that this second build, from lv 6, use always shadow blade. At lv 9 he ll get to deal 3d8 (SB) + 1d8 rapier + 3d8 (BB) + 2d6 (SA) + 1d6 off hand attack +10 = 55 so its kinda same and yea, he get also nice abilities from rogue later on but from here (lv 9) one pure bladesinger just get fantastic spells (and arcane defense is very good too), while this guy get just +5d6 sneak attack (and a similar boost can be archieved just from tenser transformation 2 lv later probably), uncanny dodge, evasion and magic ambush (that i still dont honestly know how to use well, except hold person that is anyway concentration and cost 1 action), so its probably not that worth, considering my damage output as a pure bladesinger can boost a lot at lv 11 (tenser transformation hopefully to find a decent sword) and will defintly jump at lv 13 (simulacrum) + one more asi.
I tryed adding bladesinger lv till i came out with bladesinger 6/AT 5/ bladesinger x, that dont lose simulacrum and tenser transformation, giving anyway a 10 damage output boost with SA and some of the roguish nice stuff, but at this point i dont know if it is worth the delay of hight lv spells, with tenser transformation that enter at lv 16 and simulacrum at lv 18, maybe its too late honestly.

PS a totem bear barb with 2 attacks and GWM seem deal around the same ammount of damage at lv 9, just a bit more, i didnt check the fighter, a straight rogue, any, is for sure below, paladin and sorceradin are above for sure, a cleric gish im not sure...

 

[Blue]

Yea its for sure a good tank even with few hp (he suffer a lot cha savings, but cant have everything), even probably a sorceradin do it better and deal consistent damage more.
Spell buffing malee attacks are shadow blade, BB, GFB, maybe enlarge (just 1d4), Spirit Shroud, haste and tenser transformation, plus maybe some not wizard spells, a paladin spell that gives 2d6 damage, hunter mark, hex...but all require concentration, so, having to choose seem that mostly of times shadow blade looks better, or i can think about a very mobile build with longstrider, bladesong and maybe mobile feat (or maybe not), for a total boost of my speed up to 30 feet (plus for sure haste)...he ll become an anticaster, he ll still increase his AC, going to get the casters in the backline. This make this build haste and counterspell focused, so no shadow blade at least till lv 13, when simulacrum can haste me and probably would fit better with a TWF (even without the feat). Other way is cast shadow blade and give up haste, or maybe use GI and rapier, but this last one seem already suboptimal.

I have a player in one of the games I run that is convinced that his barbarian is excellent on damage. And he's pretty good. But he regularly gets out-done by the rogue. Which makes perfect sense - if one weapon class has better defenses than another, it probably doesn't also have better offense.

Please, get out of your head on the theoretical and listen to two people who have played bladesingers over an extended level range. Bladesingers are more tanky than striker when in melee, and that's okay. It's fulfilling an important role in the party. Trying to do things like kite with the mobile feat means that foes won't be wasting attacks on you and therefore you are doing less for your party. Intend to be there and get attacked.

The flip side of that is you're a full caster and your very tanky - you're not also the master of weapon damage. With your spells you will be acceptable, but trying to optimize your "decent" instead of trying to play to your strengths ends you up like that barbarian - upset when the rogue out-damages him.