D&D 5E Help balancing a Humanoid Dragon class

[Paul Farquhar]

Again. This gives me nothing.

That's because there is nothing to give.

This is already taking what exists and tweaking it but what I am asking is "where is it broken" and "what do you suggest to fix it." It does not take a game designer to say that.

I was trying to be nice. The answer to where it is broken is "everywhere" and what you can do to fix it is "nothing". You don't have to be a game designer to see that, but if you where one you wouldn't even have to ask.

Creativity comes from doing what you can with the tools that are available.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm afraid I agree with Mr. Farquhar. I don't understand why this homebrew class is necessary at all and that a dragonborn character (presumably a sorcerer, the way the features seem to skew) or a Sorcerer-Paladin or Eldritch Knight or Bard, with the character fluffed to just appear human wouldn't suffice for this character concept.

I can give a blow-by-blow later (when I have time) if you insist. But it is really very OP...yes, everywhere...and unnecessarily.

 

[TwoSix]

Ignoring power levels, the real flaw here is trying to attach a class (the Humanoid Dragon) to an NPC stat block (whatever dragon we're talking about), and somehow retcon/depower that NPC stat block into something feasible for low level play. That just doesn't work for 5e (as opposed to 3.5/PF). A stat block might be playable, but it is not advanceable, outside of a ton of DM fiat to craft new stat blocks per level.

So the first thing is to realize none of your starting parameters can be derived from the dragon's stats, the dragon stats should only serve as a source of inspiration. Your stats should follow your normal stat generation method. Your saves should be specific to the class, and should follow the normal 5e pattern of one strong save (Dex, Con, Wis) and one weak save (Str, Int, Cha). Races that would make sense to be dragons-turned-humanoid would be Human, Custom Lineage, Dragonborn (reskinned to look human-ish if desired), Genasi, and perhaps Aasimar or Tiefling (again, reskin as needed.)

Looking purely at the features, this is much too strong, as others have said. No gish, let alone a full pact caster gish, should be getting Extra Attack (2). You also have paladin-like Improved Smite damage on top of it. You should never have 13+two stats as an unarmored defense. Plus extra elemental damage, and a fighter style...yea, way too much.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I think perhaps fundamentally the person who did the 5e Magus conversion you based this off of probably didn't have a terribly great grasp on 5e. A handful of the issues here:

-Spellsword: You can take a -2 to all attack rolls and/or spell DC for the round to cast a spell with a casting time of a standard action using your bonus action. You can also quicken the spell for 1 Sorcery point if it has a casting time greater than a standard action but it suffers an additional -2 to attack roll or
-2 to spell DC. The spell must be cast with an open hand or with a focus costing at least (100gp*spell Lv)^2 with cantrips counting as 0.5 levels for this calculation (if this focus is a held item such as a weapon or shield, this cost is in addition to any cost of the item including magical enhancements). If the focus is added to the item after creation, double this cost. This counts as an arcane focus. Conversely, you can instead take a -2 to only the bonus action's attack roll to make an additional weapon attack.

See this isn't very 5e oriented at all. Basic Arcane Foci generally just have fairly nominal costs of 20 gold or less which wouldn't work. Magical items don't have specific costs. Definitely drop this whole incompatible mechanic about arcane focus gold value.

A circumstantial -2 on all spells is the sort of incremental bonus or penalty that 5e generally avoids. If it doesn't bother you it doesn't bother you, but it is a system style mismatch.

Lots of spells don't have DCs or attack rolls, so this is just free quickening on those. Quickening is an expensive metamagic for Sorcerers (especially at the level this is given out), this doesn't really seem balanced with that.

Sorcerers can't quicken spells with long casting times, so that is very powerful. The cumulative -4 penalty on these is largely irrelevant because few such spells have saving throws and none have attack rolls.

In 5e Eldritch Knights, Valor Bards, and (post-Tashas) Bladesingers all have abilities to weave cantrips and/or leveled spells with weapon attacks. Something modeled after any of those approaches would be more balanced.

Lv10:
-Extra Attack II

In no case should this class get a second extra attack a level earlier than Fighters do. Whether this class should get it at all is a different issue (my vote would be no, or only under special circumstances), but having it before level 11 is just not in line with other classes.

I'd be another vote for not getting the first extra attack until level 6, like Bladesingers and Martial Bards. Having it at 5 is equivalent to changing the Magus to full base attack bonus progression.

Dragon Prestige: Those with half the HD you possess within 30ft of you must make a Wis save upon seeing you. On a failure, they are either frightened for 1 minute if hostile to you or you gain a +2 to Persuasion checks so long as they do not conflict with their moral beliefs for 10minutes. A success makes the creature immune for 24 hours.

This would be a prime example of not suited for 5e. There should not be abilities based on number of HD enemies have. This is almost never a factor in 5e so it is a weird thing to make the DM look up. And it seems to be always on so they have to look it up all the time for every creature. And having it always on to frighten low level enemies is a very 3.x mindset, of having low level enemies become completely obsolete non-threats. It's not a bounded accuracy friendly mechanic. And a +2 persuasion bonus on non-hostile ones is rather finicky for 5e. And shouldn't it be intimidation?

An equivalent 5e ability would be a once per day (or once per rest, or proficiency bonus per day) ability to frighten creatures of any size or gain advantage on intimidation checks. It should have a set range.

 

[Flamestrike]

Again. This gives me nothing. This is already taking what exists and tweaking it but what I am asking is "where is it broken" and "what do you suggest to fix it." It does not take a game designer to say that. The theme is a draconic spellsword.

But you can do a 'Draconic Spellsword' with the rules as written and without breaking anything.

Your 'class' above is broken. Badly, badly, horribly broken. It has the spellcasting of a Warlock (from a better list), plus the metamagic of a Sorcerer (but better), fights better that a Fighter (gaining 3 attacks per round at 10th level!) and the same hit points, gets an AC of 13+Dex+Cha+Shield (!!), seems to have ton of amazing saves, and more more more.

It seems from a cursory glance that you're trying to sneak in some kind of gestalt multiclass dragon OP 'class'.

We're suggesting that instead of trying that, you instead work with your DM (and the other players) to instead play your concept within the rules as written.

A Dragonborn [Draconic Sorcerer] multi-classed with your choice of martial class (Paladin, Eldritch Knight, Blade pact warlock etc) mixed in does exactly what you want it to do, without you creating some kind of horribly broken Frankenstein's monster.

A Dragonborn Dragon sorcerer 14, Paladin 6 for example.

 

[Quartz]

So my DM is allowing me to play a dragon in human form under the condition that it is like a curse so that I can't just go full dragon on any poor dungeon boss.

For the race side, zap! You're now a dragonborn. Job done.

For the class side, you could use the Sorceror class or the Warlock class with a draconic patron - Bahamut or Tiamat.

 

[steeldragons]

Humanoid Cursed Dragon: this class is only available to dragons and sentient, non-huminoid half-dragons
-qualifies for dragon, half-dragon, dragonborn, or any other dragon race feats
-count as both dragon and humanoid (race chosen as the humanoid form) for item effects such as attunement and bane weapons

If the concept of this is a curse/punishment to dragons to lock them into humanoid form, why are they gaining dragon, half-dragon, and dragonborn feats?

If this is to be some kind of "class feature", then make it a feature (taking up a slot/removing something else) and limit it. (I'll try to incorporate it below).

Lv1:
-Draconic Resilience: When not wearing armor your AC is 13+Dex. At Lv10, this becomes 13+Dex+Cha. You can retain this benefit when wielding a shield. You also gain 1 additional Hp per level.
-Draconic Restriction: any immunity to damage you have becomes resistance and any resistance you had is removed. Blindsight is also reduced by half. These return to normal values at 15th level.
-Draconic Attacks I: Attacks with natural weapons and weapons attuned with deal an additional 1d2 of your dragon energy type and 1d2 force damage. Attuning to a weapon takes 1 hour of uninterrupted concentration. You can attune to up to half your Int modifier (minimum 1) of manufactured weapons at a time.
-Spells: Spell progression as a Warlock and spell slots are regained on a short rest. You use the Sorcerer spell list. You are unable to learn spells that conflict with your dragon energy type (for example, red dragons can not learn cold spells and shadow dragons can not learn radiant spells). You also learn the Drake Strike cantrip.
-School: evocation -Casting Time: 1 action
-Range: 10ft -Components: V, S -Duration: instantaneous
-You are capable of conjuring the power of your dragon heritage into your hands, lashing out to send a wave of energy to hit an opponent in range. Make
a melee spell attack. On a hit, they take 2d6 damage, the damage type corresponding to your elemental affinity. At 5th level, the damage increases to
3d6. At 11th level, it increases once more to 4d6, and at 17th level, it reaches 5d6.

First, 5e Classes begin with 2 1st level features. Given the nature of this character archetype, one of them must be a choice of what kind of dragon you are and what form of humanoid you appear. This choice, by definition, is going to present starting features.

Second, the comments on the bumped-up "unarmored defense" [which is already a defined feature in 5e] have already been called out. ...and with a shield (uh, is that how unarmored defense works?)...and an extra HP per level (why?)...

Third, what is this "half blindsight" business. They've been cursed into a mortal humanoid form...They get whatever senses/special vision that form has. You want to augment it somehow, fine. Make some kind of Dragon Senses bonus? I can see that. A bonus to Perception rolls. Or even Lowlight vision even if they appear human. But a 30' Blindsight?! What mortal humanoid species gets anything even close to that?

Fourth, if you are in mortal humanoid form...why would you have Natural Attacks (to begin with anyway) beyond just an unarmed strike, like any human, elf, gnome, dragonborn, etc... Forget about the extra energy (of two types?) damage from them...that, oh yeah, also applies to your weapon attacks? What?!

If you want to give them "natural" attacks (like a claw attack) that deals extra damage. Do that. If you want their unarmed strikes to have energy damage, do that. If you want their "natural/unarmed attacks" to count as magic for the sake of bypassing restrictions and immunities, do that (Monks can do that. No big...at 6th level). If you want them giving extra energy damage to their weapon attacks, do that.

But those are ALL separate features that can grow and develop with the character. You can [should] not triple or quadruple up all of this extra power in a single 1st level feature and not expect calls of "OPed shenanigans."

Fifth (we're still in the 1st level features, aren't we?), per the functioning of 5e, if you have Warlock progression, then use the Warlock spell list. If you are giving them Sorcery points and Font of Magic, then use the Sorcerer spell list (with energy type restrictions is all well and good). But using X progression with Y spell list is sloppy (albeit simple, I'll admit) class design. Make a specific spell list for this Dragon Locked in Humanoid's Clothing Class...and while we're at it, how about a simple name for the class that's a bit more evocative than "Humanoid Cursed Dragon."

If I had to choose...off the top of my head, for a starting point... I'd probably go with 1st level features:
Draconic Origin: Once chosen, can not be changed. Choose the kind of dragon your originally were (and may yet become).

• Grants (normal) Unarmored Defense.
• Grants Preternatural Strike: Your unarmed strikes count as magic attacks for the purposes of bypassing resistances and immunities.
• Grants Preternatural Resistance: Based on the dragon type of your origin, you gain resistance to the energy form of that dragon.

Humanoid Prison: Once chosen this form can not be changed.

• You gain any resistances, weaknesses, and the senses of the humanoid form. You do not gain immunities or any other racial traits (beyond appearance) of the species.
• You count as both dragon and the humanoid you are for the purposes of all bonuses or penalties from items, attacks, etc... dependent on either.

Lv2:
-Font of Magic: You gain Sorcery Points as a Sorcerer. These can only be used on Metamagic and healing. If points are spent to heal on a short rest, you add your Cha and Con to a single HD rolled per point spent this way. You can spend as many points on healing up to half your level (minimum 1) each day.
-Limited Metamagic I: You learn 2 Metamagics. You can only use one Metamagic per Spell. If you have no Sorcery points after a short rest, you can choose to gain 1 point but take a level of exhaustion. If you already have 2 or more levels of exhaustion, you can not gain any Sorcery Points.

Sorcerers gain Font of Magic at 2nd. Ok. Fine. But that's all they get at 2nd. Metamagic doesn't kick in til 3rd. Making a Dragon more magically adept than a Draconic Sorcerer seems like...I don't know...it makes sense, I guess... but also seems entirely unnecessary/redundant.

I don't see how it's "limited" when you are building in a sorcery point recovery mechanic that Sorcerers, themselves, do not have. No reason you can't regain sorcery points through Font of Magic, as the feature is written.

As a general rule, as some others have pointed out (e.g. Extra Attack better or same as fighters), you want this class to be "sorta like" a combination of different other elements. That's totally fine and pretty common for homebrew class-making. But generally, it is considered bad form, if not "overpowered/bad design," to make a homebrew class that is a "better X than X." This additional sorcery point recovery note strikes me as that kind of design faux pas.

Seems like this should be where your Spellcasting/Progression begins.

Lv3:
-Spellsword: You can take a -2 to all attack rolls and/or spell DC for the round to cast a spell with a casting time of a standard action using your bonus action. You can also quicken the spell for 1 Sorcery point if it has a casting time greater than a standard action but it suffers an additional -2 to attack roll or
-2 to spell DC. The spell must be cast with an open hand or with a focus costing at least (100gp*spell Lv)^2 with cantrips counting as 0.5 levels for this calculation (if this focus is a held item such as a weapon or shield, this cost is in addition to any cost of the item including magical enhancements). If the focus is added to the item after creation, double this cost. This counts as an arcane focus. Conversely, you can instead take a -2 to only the bonus action's attack roll to make an additional weapon attack.
-Draconic Talent: You can learn new spells that do not conflict with your energy type like a wizard but this takes 4 times the amount of time and materials to commit to memory. If it can be cast as a ritual, you can cast it as one and takes half the time and materials.

I don't know enough about existing 5e "spellsword" type classes to know if this is accurate or as written for existing options of this type of attack/feature. My gut says that it makes sense that THIS is where you could/would incorporate the "extra energy damage" based on your dragon origin type. Spend a sorcery point and add the energy damage to an unarmed or weapon attack. Period. No bonus spell casting.

"Draconic Talent"...now we're getting spells like a wizard...that take 4x as long to prepare [?} and expensive... This is just...I dunno...I don't get it. I don't see the appeal or reason it is needed as a feature...or make THIS the mechanic by which you get to do the "spell as a bonus action" thing with a weapon attack.

Lv4:
-Ability Score Improvement I

This is fine. 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th,19th Ability Score bonus (and Proficiency Bonus increase). Standard for all classes. No problem.

Lv5:
-Spellstrike: You can prepare to cast a spell on a bonus action and release it with a weapon attack. If the attack scores a critical hit, the spell does as well. If the spell does not have an attack roll, it instead imposes disadvantage to the save on a critical. If the spell is AOE, you can still be targeted by it including critical hits. You always fail the save of any damaging AOE spells cast this way with this damage ignoring Evasion and like abilities. Lines can point away from you or sweep left or right of you and cones always point away from you.
-Extra Attack I

Isn't this basically the same feature as the Spellsword (above)? Granted I think that one should be changed, so I guess this one makes sense to leave.
And Extra Attack...once...fine.

Lv6:
-Elemental Affinity: You add your Cha to spells that deal damage of your dragon energy type or force damage. You also gain resistance to force damage.
-Combat Style: You gain a Fighter combat style.

This looks ok, I guess. I do not understand the "dragon energy or force" thing. You are a dragon. Your other features are tied to your dragon energy type. Elemental affinity as defined for draconic sorcerers is tied to your dragon energy type. What is justifying the "force damage" option?

Lv7:
-Improved Spellsword: You no longer suffer the -2 to attack rolls and saves imposed by the Spellsword feature.

My preference would be to alter the initial feature as noted above and so this would become a damage increase...and/or add "force damage" as an option here, too.

Lv9:
-Spell Learning I: You learn one spell from each spell list other than Sorcerer but still suffer the limitations that your sorcerer spells do

You who what now? One spell from each spell list?! No class learns that many new spells in a single level. Make it an option to learn A [1!] spell from A [1!] spell list other than the sorcerer's (or this class' custom list).

Lv10:
-Extra Attack II

Nope. Fighter's shtick. Come up with something else.

-Draconic Attacks II: Weapon attacks now deal an additional 1d4 of your dragon energy type and 1d4 force damage.

For a 10th level "milestone" kinda feature. I'm actually ok with this. But it would just be "Draconic Attack" because I would not/never all the "Dragon Attack I" feature at 1st level.

-Limited Metamagic II: You learn 1 additional Metamagic. You can use 2 Metamagics on a single spell by paying 2 additional Sorcery Points. If you have no Sorcery points after a short rest, you can choose to gain 2 points but take a level of exhaustion. If you already have 2 or more levels of exhaustion, you do not gain any Sorcery Points.

I"m thinking "No" on this too. The whole use of Metamagic by this class needs a rethink and restructuring.

Lv11:
-Draconic Blast: You can sacrifice one of your attacks to launch a blast of energy in a 30ft line or 15ft cone (chosen at the time of use). This damage is 1d8 or your dragon energy type and 1d8 force damage. This increases by 1d8 of your dragon energy type at 15th level and 1d8 force damage at 19th level. The save DC is 8+half your level+Con and the save used is based on your dragon origins (for example, a white dragon's save could be a Con save while a brass dragon's is a Dex save).

Is this commensurate with whatever the dragonborn breath weapon does?

Lv13:
-Returning Form I: You can spend 2 sorcery points to grow draconic wings for 30 minutes. You also gain a draconic tail during this time but can not be used to attack. This can be canceled at any time with any time remaining being wasted. This fly speed is equal to twice their base speed.
-Elemental Mastery: You can spend 1 sorcery point to ignore resistance to your dragon energy type and force and treat immunity to these as resistance for 1 minute.

I don't mind the Returning Form. I think it works. It's flavorful. It's not OPd for the level...perhaps even a bit late, imo.
Elemental Mastery is ok, too, I guess.

The problem, of course, is that classes -especially spell progressing classes- do not receive multiple features per level.

Lv14:
-Ability Score Improvement IV

Huh? At 14th? No. Fighter's thing. Ranger 16th. Sorcerer 16th. Warlock 16th. Paladin 16th. Dragon Cursed in Humanoid Form: 16th.

Lv15:
-Dragon Prestige: Those with half the HD you possess within 30ft of you must make a Wis save upon seeing you. On a failure, they are either frightened for 1 minute if hostile to you or you gain a +2 to Persuasion checks so long as they do not conflict with their moral beliefs for 10minutes. A success makes the creature immune for 24 hours.

I don't "hate" this...I think it's...hmmm...It needs some reworking/refinement. I see someone mentioned something about features based off HD not being a 5e thing...and that seems legit, afaik. I'm sure there's a way to make this useful/happen without relying on that element.

Lv17:
-Limited Metamagic III: You learn 1 additional Metamagic. You can use 3 Metamagics on a single spell by paying 4 additional Sorcery Points. If you have no
Sorcery points after a short rest, you can choose to gain 2 points but take a level of exhaustion. If you already have 2 or more levels of exhaustion, you do not gain any Sorcery Points.
-Returning Form II: Wings can now be manifested for 30 minutes per point spent. You also gain a tail attack dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage during this time. You can also spend a Sorcery Point to grow claws on your hands each dealing 1d6 slashing or bludgeoning damage for 30 minutes. This can be canceled at any time ending with any time remaining being waisted.

Keep Returning Form. Drop (and see above re Metamagic. Again, 1 feature.

Lv18:
-Spell Learning II: You learn one additional spell from each spell list other than Sorcerer but still suffer the limitations that your sorcerer spells do

This is just a no...again. This needs redefining.

Lv20:
-Draconic Attacks III: Weapon attacks now deal an additional 1d6 of your dragon energy type and 1d6 force damage.
-Dragon Form: 1/day you can take the form of an adult dragon of your type for 10 minutes as per Polymorph. If you are older than an adult dragon, you take the form of a dragon of your age. When the time expires, the form can be extended 1 minute by spending a Sorcery Point. This can be done until you run out of Sorcery Points. You can still cast your spells as per normal in this form. You also gain 4 Sorcery Points.

Yeah...if this is a third increase of a revamped "Dragon Attack" then fine. The Dragon Form makes sense for flavor...though I am confused by the once per day and don't tihnk it's necessary. Make it dependent on spending Sorcery points for every 10 minutes...and you don't gain 4 extra Sorcery points on top of this.

All in all, I dig the idea/concept. I just think that you are trying to stuff too much stuff in too many places and the result is an unnecessarily complicated and blatantly overpowered first pass. Refine. Rework. Reposition certain elements. Prune and crop. There is a decent/cool class here. It just needs work.

 

[Flamestrike]

Its just a Fighter that fights better than a Fighter, with at will bonus action spellcasting, on a full caster chassis, with metamagic better than a Sorcerer, that also has self buffs, Unarmored defence better than a Monk or Barbarian, blindsight and other senses, and the saves of a Dragon.

OP, it's horrendously broken. Just play a Dragonborn Sorcadin.

 

[DragonLordAcar]

If the concept of this is a curse/punishment to dragons to lock them into humanoid form, why are they gaining dragon, half-dragon, and dragonborn feats?

If this is to be some kind of "class feature", then make it a feature (taking up a slot/removing something else) and limit it. (I'll try to incorporate it below).



First, 5e Classes begin with 2 1st level features. Given the nature of this character archetype, one of them must be a choice of what kind of dragon you are and what form of humanoid you appear. This choice, by definition, is going to present starting features.

Second, the comments on the bumped-up "unarmored defense" [which is already a defined feature in 5e] have already been called out. ...and with a shield (uh, is that how unarmored defense works?)...and an extra HP per level (why?)...

Third, what is this "half blindsight" business. They've been cursed into a mortal humanoid form...They get whatever senses/special vision that form has. You want to augment it somehow, fine. Make some kind of Dragon Senses bonus? I can see that. A bonus to Perception rolls. Or even Lowlight vision even if they appear human. But a 30' Blindsight?! What mortal humanoid species gets anything even close to that?

Fourth, if you are in mortal humanoid form...why would you have Natural Attacks (to begin with anyway) beyond just an unarmed strike, like any human, elf, gnome, dragonborn, etc... Forget about the extra energy (of two types?) damage from them...that, oh yeah, also applies to your weapon attacks? What?!

If you want to give them "natural" attacks (like a claw attack) that deals extra damage. Do that. If you want their unarmed strikes to have energy damage, do that. If you want their "natural/unarmed attacks" to count as magic for the sake of bypassing restrictions and immunities, do that (Monks can do that. No big...at 6th level). If you want them giving extra energy damage to their weapon attacks, do that.

But those are ALL separate features that can grow and develop with the character. You can [should] not triple or quadruple up all of this extra power in a single 1st level feature and not expect calls of "OPed shenanigans."

Fifth (we're still in the 1st level features, aren't we?), per the functioning of 5e, if you have Warlock progression, then use the Warlock spell list. If you are giving them Sorcery points and Font of Magic, then use the Sorcerer spell list (with energy type restrictions is all well and good). But using X progression with Y spell list is sloppy (albeit simple, I'll admit) class design. Make a specific spell list for this Dragon Locked in Humanoid's Clothing Class...and while we're at it, how about a simple name for the class that's a bit more evocative than "Humanoid Cursed Dragon."

If I had to choose...off the top of my head, for a starting point... I'd probably go with 1st level features:
Draconic Origin: Once chosen, can not be changed. Choose the kind of dragon your originally were (and may yet become).

• Grants (normal) Unarmored Defense.
• Grants Preternatural Strike: Your unarmed strikes count as magic attacks for the purposes of bypassing resistances and immunities.
• Grants Preternatural Resistance: Based on the dragon type of your origin, you gain resistance to the energy form of that dragon.

Humanoid Prison: Once chosen this form can not be changed.

• You gain any resistances, weaknesses, and the senses of the humanoid form. You do not gain immunities or any other racial traits (beyond appearance) of the species.
• You count as both dragon and the humanoid you are for the purposes of all bonuses or penalties from items, attacks, etc... dependent on either.

Sorcerers gain Font of Magic at 2nd. Ok. Fine. But that's all they get at 2nd. Metamagic doesn't kick in til 3rd. Making a Dragon more magically adept than a Draconic Sorcerer seems like...I don't know...it makes sense, I guess... but also seems entirely unnecessary/redundant.

I don't see how it's "limited" when you are building in a sorcery point recovery mechanic that Sorcerers, themselves, do not have. No reason you can't regain sorcery points through Font of Magic, as the feature is written.

As a general rule, as some others have pointed out (e.g. Extra Attack better or same as fighters), you want this class to be "sorta like" a combination of different other elements. That's totally fine and pretty common for homebrew class-making. But generally, it is considered bad form, if not "overpowered/bad design," to make a homebrew class that is a "better X than X." This additional sorcery point recovery note strikes me as that kind of design faux pas.

Seems like this should be where your Spellcasting/Progression begins.



I don't know enough about existing 5e "spellsword" type classes to know if this is accurate or as written for existing options of this type of attack/feature. My gut says that it makes sense that THIS is where you could/would incorporate the "extra energy damage" based on your dragon origin type. Spend a sorcery point and add the energy damage to an unarmed or weapon attack. Period. No bonus spell casting.

"Draconic Talent"...now we're getting spells like a wizard...that take 4x as long to prepare [?} and expensive... This is just...I dunno...I don't get it. I don't see the appeal or reason it is needed as a feature...or make THIS the mechanic by which you get to do the "spell as a bonus action" thing with a weapon attack.



This is fine. 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th,19th Ability Score bonus (and Proficiency Bonus increase). Standard for all classes. No problem.


Isn't this basically the same feature as the Spellsword (above)? Granted I think that one should be changed, so I guess this one makes sense to leave.
And Extra Attack...once...fine.



This looks ok, I guess. I do not understand the "dragon energy or force" thing. You are a dragon. Your other features are tied to your dragon energy type. Elemental affinity as defined for draconic sorcerers is tied to your dragon energy type. What is justifying the "force damage" option?



My preference would be to alter the initial feature as noted above and so this would become a damage increase...and/or add "force damage" as an option here, too.


You who what now? One spell from each spell list?! No class learns that many new spells in a single level. Make it an option to learn A [1!] spell from A [1!] spell list other than the sorcerer's (or this class' custom list).


Nope. Fighter's shtick. Come up with something else.

For a 10th level "milestone" kinda feature. I'm actually ok with this. But it would just be "Draconic Attack" because I would not/never all the "Dragon Attack I" feature at 1st level.


I"m thinking "No" on this too. The whole use of Metamagic by this class needs a rethink and restructuring.


Is this commensurate with whatever the dragonborn breath weapon does?


I don't mind the Returning Form. I think it works. It's flavorful. It's not OPd for the level...perhaps even a bit late, imo.
Elemental Mastery is ok, too, I guess.

The problem, of course, is that classes -especially spell progressing classes- do not receive multiple features per level.



Huh? At 14th? No. Fighter's thing. Ranger 16th. Sorcerer 16th. Warlock 16th. Paladin 16th. Dragon Cursed in Humanoid Form: 16th.



I don't "hate" this...I think it's...hmmm...It needs some reworking/refinement. I see someone mentioned something about features based off HD not being a 5e thing...and that seems legit, afaik. I'm sure there's a way to make this useful/happen without relying on that element.


Keep Returning Form. Drop (and see above re Metamagic. Again, 1 feature.


This is just a no...again. This needs redefining.



Yeah...if this is a third increase of a revamped "Dragon Attack" then fine. The Dragon Form makes sense for flavor...though I am confused by the once per day and don't tihnk it's necessary. Make it dependent on spending Sorcery points for every 10 minutes...and you don't gain 4 extra Sorcery points on top of this.

All in all, I dig the idea/concept. I just think that you are trying to stuff too much stuff in too many places and the result is an unnecessarily complicated and blatantly overpowered first pass. Refine. Rework. Reposition certain elements. Prune and crop. There is a decent/cool class here. It just needs work.

This helps a lot. For context, I am fairly new to 5e and am use to Pathfinder/3.5e. I do try to add too much to my characters. So I am going to remove a lot of stuff.

Only have the 2 attacks (total) with that bonus action for spell option and spell at negative (may just remove this last one and look at those other classes you recommended for a better system). Should be more than enough damage. Should probably change spell recharge to long rest as well while I am at it.

Blindsight I do want to keep as well as the ability to take racial feats of dragon races as even if the body is mostly huminoid, the draconic magic in them will still mutate them. This is how you sometimes get draconic creatures without having draconic parents (I mean it is rare but red dragons make volcanos by simply existing so there is some context for their sheer power). Probably drow blindsight to 10ft and bump it by 5 ft at 10th and 15th level if not just cap it at 10ft.

I will drop the unarmored to 10+Dex+Cha at the maximum and can keep it with a shield like Barbarians can.

I want to refrain from giving the base form natural weapons or other blatant physical draconic features that is not a temporary thing but some things under the skin (like enhanced hearing and smell for the blindsight) can still be fair game. I was and still am tempted to give the cursed dragons vulnerability to their opposing element as well.

I will change the enhanced attaches to one energy type based on the dragon (like cold for a white dragon). I did the force damage on a whim because I thought it was cool.

As I was new to 5e I did not know that the Sorcer list was that much better so I will make a list of spells or perhaps have a banned school list (with the Spell Learning bypassing this but still keep the elemental limitations) and perhaps keep damage to only the dragon's type +1 other (exceptions are spells like Chaos Bolt due to the nature of the spell).

Draconic Origin: Once chosen, can not be changed. Choose the kind of dragon your originally were (and may yet become).

• Grants (normal) Unarmored Defense.
• Grants Preternatural Strike: Your unarmed strikes count as magic attacks for the purposes of bypassing resistances and immunities.
• Grants Preternatural Resistance: Based on the dragon type of your origin, you gain resistance to the energy form of that dragon.

Humanoid Prison: Once chosen this form can not be changed.

• You gain any resistances, weaknesses, and the senses of the humanoid form. You do not gain immunities or any other racial traits (beyond appearance) of the species.
• You count as both dragon and the humanoid you are for the purposes of all bonuses or penalties from items, attacks, etc... dependent on either.

I love this. It fixes the dealing like this may just be a buff in the long term feeling. I will make this Lv1 and swap other abilities around to higher levels.

Limited Metamagic is quite misleading as you have pointed out. I have some ideas on how to fix this like increasing cost, limiting how many metamagics they can know, or perhaps even changing it to you can only use each meta magic once at low levels and twice at 10th and after even if there are sorcery points available. Also, wondering if the exhaustion up to 2 in exchange for some Sorcery Points is too much? I think of it as a stamina drain for magic power but if it is too powerful it can be removed.

I will take your advice and Change Draconic Talent into the spell as a bonus action thing. This was a perfect example of me wanting to do too much.

Perhaps I can change Spellstrike to have the weapon add the damage as a spell but it takes a short/long rest to recover the single use.

I will update Spell Learning to be 2 spells only. If it is still too powerful, I will knock it to 1. If not mentioned above, the element limitation still applies.

Thank you for your input. This is the best advice I have gotten so far. Admittedly, my power gamer had quite a bit of say in this but I am glad that the kinks are being worked out.

Lv11:
-Draconic Blast: You can sacrifice one of your attacks to launch a blast of energy in a 30ft line or 15ft cone (chosen at the time of use). This damage is 1d8 or your dragon energy type and 1d8 force damage. This increases by 1d8 of your dragon energy type at 15th level and 1d8 force damage at 19th level. The save DC is 8+half your level+Con and the save used is based on your dragon origins (for example, a white dragon's save could be a Con save while a brass dragon's is a Dex save).

Is this commensurate with whatever the dragonborn breath weapon does?

Yes. I thought I wrote a cooldown (at least a once per short rest) but apparently I forgot or accidentally deleted it when editing at some point.

So I will remove the extra Sorcery Points for Dragon Form and also remove the 1/day limitation.

 

[steeldragons]

I think the Spell Learning at 2 spells (of lists you don't have access to) is reasonable. It matches the bonus spells other classes or domains or what have you get. And if that's the feature two or even three times, 6 bonus spells seems entirely reasonable.

I'm glad some of my meanderings were useful/helpful.