D&D 5E (2014) "Combat exhaustion" at 0 hp?

[Flamestrike]

It's not.

Exactly.

So this rule (like all other house rules/ rulings such as 'fumbles' and 'DC10 to climb a rope' and 'no GWM' and 'flanking' and 'instant death from falls') just punishes martials and leaves the casters alone.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Exactly.

So this rule (like all other house rules/ rulings such as 'fumbles' and 'DC10 to climb a rope' and 'no GWM' and 'flanking' and 'instant death from falls') just punishes martials and leaves the casters alone.

What's your point? You say this as though we aren't already aware of this.

You feel like you need to stand up for all of our poor martial characters in our games while the big mean spellcasters get to do whatever they want? I'm sure all my martial character players appreciate you looking out for them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

What's your point? You say this as though we aren't already aware of this.

You feel like you need to stand up for all of our poor martial characters in our games while the big mean spellcasters get to do whatever they want? I'm sure all my martial character players appreciate you looking out for them.

It is funny. I've had people post how this hurts martials more than casters, but they never try it. IME it hurts everyone pretty equally. Yes, casters tend to hang back, but they are also prime targets and have fewer HP, so are more likely to reach 0 HP when they get targeted. They also have lower ACs in general IME (not a lot lower, but lower) because they aren't on the front line.

For people who actually try out such rules, it plays perfectly well IMO and doesn't tend to favor any one class over another.

 

[DEFCON 1]

For people who actually try out such rules, it plays perfectly well IMO and doesn't tend to favor any one class over another.

Yep. Every table is different. Heck, I still see the occasional post where the person says that the Quadratic Caster issue is still a thing. So some tables must make exceedingly easy for the casters to just overpower everything. But there ain't nothing I can do for them. That's their cross the bear.

 

[fearsomepirate]

At what point is spellcasting affected?

L3 exhaustion gives you disadvantage on spell attack rolls and concentration checks.

 

[Flamestrike]

L3 exhaustion gives you disadvantage on spell attack rolls and concentration checks.

Attack rolls are something a spellcaster can avoid by casting save or suck spells, buffs, conjuration etc.

Disadvantage on attacks, skill checks, reduced max hp and nerfed movement hurts Martials more. Heck the disadvantage on attacks totally shuts off rhe Rogues core class feature in sneak attack.

 

[Li Shenron]

I know the topic of replacing Death Saves has been covered, but I wanted to take a version I've seen on other threads and weave it into my own (vitality at 0hp). Not looking for debate on whether one should use an alternative to Death Saves, but any abuses or loopholes you could see occurring. My players currently like the idea of being relevant, albeit reduced in ability and hovering at death's door, at 0hp.

Several DMs use some version of a homebrew rule, in lieu of Death Saves at 0 hit points, of: gain 1 level of exhaustion. The purpose is largely to avoid "whack-a-mole." The rule has been criticized as easily leading to a death spiral, especially for front-line characters, though it is a simplistic rule to implement. What if the exhaustion gained this way were easier to shed? Much credit to folks in this thread and @6ENow!

Proposed System:

1. At 0 hit points, PC gains 1 level of "combat exhaustion" and any concentration effects end. Combat exhaustion is the same as normal exhaustion and stacks with it, but is easier to remove by:
   • 1 per short rest or lesser restoration
   • All by a long rest, greater restoration, or potion of vitality.
2. The PC makes a Concentration saving throw to gain the "staggered" condition and stay conscious. Failure means the character gains the "unconscious" condition. Once a player gains at least 1 hit point, they lose these conditions. A player can voluntarily "fail" the save (perhaps to avoid looking like a threat on the battlefield).
   • If the save is failed by 5 or more, the PC gains a "lingering injury" per the DMG p272.
3. A "staggered" PC loses reactions, cannot move unless they use the Dash action, and can only take a single Action or Bonus action on their turn. Each time the PC takes damage while staggered, they must make another Concentration saving throw as above.

It's more complicated than I like, so I would stop at this point and ignore the last part, but I think it would be interesting.

But make sure to consider DEFCON1's proposal on rearranging (of if you like uncertainty, even randomising!) the order of effects of exhaustion because indeed the 1st one matters little in combat but is way too severe out of combat, it feels as if the designer who came up with the list might have had a very combat-centric gamestyle in mind.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's more complicated than I like, so I would stop at this point and ignore the last part, but I think it would be interesting.

But make sure to consider DEFCON1's proposal on rearranging (of if you like uncertainty, even randomising!) the order of effects of exhaustion because indeed the 1st one matters little in combat but is way too severe out of combat, it feels as if the designer who came up with the list might have had a very combat-centric gamestyle in mind.

Based upon the whole '6-8 encounters' thing, I think the designers definitely were originally thinking/planning in terms of the dungeon crawl for a lot of their combat rules.

Once you went outside and your "encounter day" was hanging around a town or walking through the woods and maybe one fight would come your way that day... that's where all the supposed issues with balance between characters/classes show up.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Well then they're utter idiots.

Healing word chews up a spell slot, and a bonus action (and being a bonus action spell, it negates the ability of the caster to cast another spell that turn), and only heals you (you remain prone).

My players do what they do regardless of whether I think it's smart.

It's just a non issue, and if it WAS an issue the last thing I would be doing would be implementing a rule that a) overly penalizes martial PCs, and b) mandates the 5MWD.

I haven't seen a 5MWD in the years I've been DMing like this. The risks of letting giving your enemies a 24-hour break outweigh the risks of pressing on with a druid who is now rolling initiative with disadvantage. Casters go down way more often in my games than martials. The monsters know who showed up to battle in pajamas.

 

[Democratus]

Exhaustion at 0 hp has transformed our game and made it much better.

In baseline 5e, being reduced to 0 hp is effectively taking a short nap. Which brings very little sense of danger or urgency. It should be significant if something strikes you so hard that you drop to the ground bleeding.

Yoyo healing has made being "eliminated" in combat little more than a movement penalty as you stand up to continue fighting.

With exhaustion, I have found the players much more reluctant to simply charge at every encounter like it was a video game. Instead they calculate when it is better to find either an alternative to fighting or come up with a way to push the odds more in their favor before risking life and limb.

YMMV