TSR Running list of potential problematic issues in TSR era DnD

[Faolyn]

Products like the aforementioned Maztica are problematic but Volo’s commentary on Orcs? Orcs aren’t real! Anytime I’ve played with someone who turned out racist they didn’t need fake fantasy races to express their prejudice. They just used human cultures to express their disdain for fellow humans.

The problem with Volo's commentary is it uses the exact same language used to dehumanize actual people in the real world. It doesn't actually matter that orcs aren't real or aren't based on any one specific culture.

So the options are, either the commentary is bad, or Volo himself is a racist. I actually like the latter as a concept, but it's not really supported by the text. At least with the Van Richten's guides, it was obvious that everything he was writing was his own beliefs and sometimes the actual DM's info sidebar contradicted him.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I, personally, agree. Fixing problematic things is a sisyphean task. There really isn't any clear definition on it and it's really hard to get a consensus.

That said, the point of the thread is to pick out things people find problematic and discuss it.



Not everyone with the same identity has the same opinion and I find it problematic that you think that they do.

A thing doesn't have to affect you in order for it to have merit. Good Lord....

 

[HJFudge]

A thing doesn't have to affect you in order for it to have merit. Good Lord....

Where, exactly, did I mention anything about any of this affecting me or not affecting me?

I merely stated that whether or not you accept and agree with the arguments made in this thread depends on your politics and worldview. Which is true.

People with the same or similar identities can, and do, have different politics and worldviews. Their identity has nothing to do with how they view the argument.

 

[Faolyn]

I, personally, agree. Fixing problematic things is a sisyphean task. There really isn't any clear definition on it and it's really hard to get a consensus.

That said, the point of the thread is to pick out things people find problematic and discuss it.

Not at all. It was simply an observation that when we include diverse ethnicities, we often portray them as being part of a european culture. Like putting a black man in plate armor. It's still european culture, and we're still not depicting african (any african) culture.

It is a sisyphean task, and made more difficult by the fact that we can just make up cultures wholecloth. For instance, we could create a society that was very similar to, say, Maasi culture (to take one at random from the internets) in terms of beliefs, social structure, religion and mythology, etc., but also say that they used more metal armor and weapons, and include the reasons why in their cultural history. But it's also hard to tell if that is OK.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Not at all. It was simply an observation that when we include diverse ethnicities, we often portray them as being part of a european culture. Like putting a black man in plate armor. It's still european culture, and we're still not depicting african (any african) culture.

It would be like depicting native americans in our art, but only in western white attire and saying we're being diverse for including them. Needless to say, taking a diverse person of color and depicting them in eurocentric attire has about a million problematic issues going on from a historical standpoint. Like how we did that as a way to eradicate their culture.

If I were to design a game, I'd avoid trying to depict real life cultures at all, no Asian, no European, no African. The pitfalls are too many: you risk being accused of cultural appropriation, you risk being accused of depicting people of culture A in the trapping of culture B, you risk what you mentions, if you depicts a real life culture, you'll risk to be accused not to include enough of them or worse of mixing disparagely several distinct cultures as a single one... I am not sure it's worth the risk having ANY culture in a published product today evocative of a real life culture (and with gender equality and magic, I think any culture depicted in the game can be distinctive enough from any real life culture. Eberron's Breland is beginning 19th century England and Aundair is France, but it's a deliberate risk taken by the author, not because aspects of the Eberron world necessitated having not-France and not-England and couldn't produce truly original cultures based on the premises.

 

[HJFudge]

It is a sisyphean task, and made more difficult by the fact that we can just make up cultures wholecloth. For instance, we could create a society that was very similar to, say, Maasi culture (to take one at random from the internets) in terms of beliefs, social structure, religion and mythology, etc., but also say that they used more metal armor and weapons, and include the reasons why in their cultural history. But it's also hard to tell if that is OK.

Yes there is a very uncertain line between Appropriation and Representation and what something falls under is very much up to the viewer. Everyone's got different lines on this.

There is value in the discussion, but that value gets lost when people start One True Way-ing everything.

I'm okay with someone disagreeing with me on what constitutes appropriation. I recognize I am not the sole arbiter in all of this. When I am at my table, I have tools to actually fix all of this. I can simply ask my players (who are not all white dudes with beards) what they think and if/when they DO raise a concern, to address it without judgment or censure. The company, WOTC, does not have the tools to fix it in any satisfying manner. As the variety of threads on this and similar topics illustrate.

 

[billd91]

If I were to design a game, I'd avoid trying to depict real life cultures at all, no Asian, no European, no African. The pitfalls are too many: you risk being accused of cultural appropriation, you risk being accused of depicting people of culture A in the trapping of culture B, you risk what you mentions, if you depicts a real life culture, you'll risk to be accused not to include enough of them or worse of mixing disparagely several distinct cultures as a single one... I am not sure it's worth the risk having ANY culture in a published product today evocative of a real life culture (and with gender equality and magic, I think any culture depicted in the game can be distinctive enough from any real life culture. Eberron's Breland is beginning 19th century England and Aundair is France, but it's a deliberate risk taken by the author, not because aspects of the Eberron world necessitated having not-France and not-England and couldn't produce truly original cultures based on the premises.

So how do you depict, in art, any character without any cultural artifacts whatsoever?

 

[Weiley31]

The last time I had cheesecake was when I realized that I really was lactose intolerant. Sigh...

Oy, my condolences. That sucks.

 

[Faolyn]

If I were to design a game, I'd avoid trying to depict real life cultures at all, no Asian, no European, no African.

Agreed. What I like to do is grab some interesting base concepts from a variety of cultures and blend them together, while removing as much of the real world as I can. As per below...

So how do you depict, in art, any character without any cultural artifacts whatsoever?

Somewhere in another thread, I took the idea of the katana and brought it down to the base concept: it's a weapon that's only to be used by a certain caste, who must follow a specific code, and it's made by folding fairly poor-quality steel a zillion times until its really strong (I realize it's more complicated that that).

So in a fantasy world, you have a people--which can be of any species--that uses a weapon made of what others would consider a sub-par material, but the material is treated in such a way that it's actually really effective. And only a certain group of people within that culture can use the weapon. The weapon can be made of anything, from poor-quality steel to magic wood to monster teeth, and the subgroup can be anything from a caste to a specific order of warriors to people who are all born with one purple eye. And the code they must follow would probably take at least some cues from bushido, or European chivalry (which is actually quite similar), but could easily include other details based on whatever species you're dealing with.

 

[Stormonu]

The original comment implied an issue with monotheism.

As the original commenter, I can clearly say you are in the wrong - that was not what I was saying at all. The problem is that the game allows for pantheons, but priests (and often characters) cannot Derive their abilities from alternating or multiple sources. Even worse, you can only draw power from one aspect of that single source.

Theros is the only product I have seen attempt to break away from this, and has a system that allows tracking of devotion to possibly multiple deities.