D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
I have made the thread to discuss the monk class its strengths, its weaknesses and how we could improve it.
the class that has never really be done well.
the class that has never felt properly integrated.
let us discuss it now.

I will also talk endlessly about my own dumb ideas but that is inevitable.
shall we begin?
 

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Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I've half a mind to fuse sorcerers and monk together, making them the class that represent the ''power comes from inside'' idea. The class would group the concept of elemental bending ala Avatar, the jedi and other such concept where the character has a inner pool of power that they learn over time to master.

Archetypes:
Dragon Disciple
Elementalist
Chaos Anchorite
 

GreyLord

Legend
I have made the thread to discuss the monk class its strengths, its weaknesses and how we could improve it.
the class that has never really be done well.
the class that has never felt properly integrated.
let us discuss it now.

I will also talk endlessly about my own dumb ideas but that is inevitable.
shall we begin?

It normally boiled down to...

To few Hitpoints...

To low of hitting power.

I think this is applicable from the beginning of the class all the way through at least 3.5 edition.

The original became somewhat decent at high levels (saying that you could fight your way through them to overcome the prior masters), but that took a while to get there.

In 3.X it became more of a specialized Spellcaster bane as it had strong saves and various ways to overcome a Spellcaster on the first round or two. Of course, that was a HIGHLY specialized role and specifically for certain situations and conditions. When those conditions in those situations were met, the Monk was better than just about anyone else in defeating a spellcaster...but otherwise was relatively weak.

In fact, outside of that, as the Monk had a Lower AC they were more susceptible to everything else.

In 5e the Monk has decent hitting power, but once again is somewhat handicapped by a low AC value comparatively to others (IMO). I think it is a little more balanced than it has in the past, but probably could do with a little more HP to counter other frailties it has.
 

Splitting off the "I am a skilled martial artist" from the "I channel magic through myself to do supernatural things" concepts might be worthwhile. Simply having an unarmoured fighting style for martial classes and an unarmed fighter subtype could do a lot of that.

The issue with the baseline monk is that is has OK performance, but no knobs and levers to crank up its performance through optimisation.
Actually playing a monk can take a lot of tactical thought, since it has a lot of movement and potential resource usage. However although you generally have to try to build a bad monk, you can't push their performance much through system mastery and min/maxing.
If the basic monk is equivalent to the standard sword-and-board champion Fighter, there is no monk equivalent of the Hand crossbow-using Sharpshooter crossbow expert Battlemaster fighter.

Four elements monk also has conceptual issues in that element-benders are full-casters, and a half-caster like the monk class cannot meet expectations as a full caster.

I think before you really get down to the nitty-gritty of deciding what the monk needs, you need to lay out the baseline level of performance that you are aiming for, and the adventuring day assumptions you're making.
Are you aiming for something that functions like a Paladin? Fighter? How good a Fighter?
 

akr71

Hero
I've half a mind to fuse sorcerers and monk together, making them the class that represent the ''power comes from inside'' idea. The class would group the concept of elemental bending ala Avatar, the jedi and other such concept where the character has a inner pool of power that they learn over time to master.

Archetypes:
Dragon Disciple
Elementalist
Chaos Anchorite
The unarmed combat is always what attracted me to the monk, but this intrigues me. As long as there was an archetype that allows for an unarmed fighting specialist coupled with mental discipline, I'd be cool with it.

A jedi-type class would definitely be cool, as would an Avatar type bender - the PHB failed mightily to capture that feel.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
The unarmed combat is always what attracted me to the monk, but this intrigues me. As long as there was an archetype that allows for an unarmed fighting specialist coupled with mental discipline, I'd be cool with it.

A jedi-type class would definitely be cool, as would an Avatar type bender - the PHB failed mightily to capture that feel.

I think that the class would include a ''natural'' attack, be it mystic martial arts or elemental strike or ranged attack (ala Sun Soul Monk). The archetypes, obviously chosen at 1st level, would determine the exact nature of said attack.

I have a personal homebrew were I converted the Monk chassis to the Aberration, which represent the classic ''monster pc as class'': Vampire, Werebeast, Slayers (unrelenting slasher trope) and Reanimated are covered by just refluffling the lore of the class and creating a few new features.
 

the class that has never really be done well.
the class that has never felt properly integrated.
Yes and yes.

The concept of the Monk was a very "of it's time" thing, in a way that no other class is, and it's never attained the sort of iconic distinction that, say, the Cleric has. I mean the Cleric was a weird-as-hell idea designed to counter Sir Fang, mashing up witch-hunters, the Bible, Bishop Odo and other sources, but D&D made it iconic, and now you'll find it or something like it in a million games, TT and CRPG (it hasn't quite every infiltrated literary or film fantasy, AFAIK, but that's another question).

Whereas Monk was maybe a little less weird, because it essentially had a single source - Shaolin Monks and the legends and myths surrounding them (though it picked up a few things along the way), but it was never as iconic, because that's so specific - it can't be generalized. It's not just say, "A supernatural martial artist"

Supernatural martial artist is what it should have been - that's the archetype, that's something that's appeared in mythology, fantasy, superhero comics and video games since basically forever. But instead of having an equivalent to the Fighter, Wizard, Thief, or the like, which encompassed these concepts, the D&D Monk is essentially a subset of "Supernatural martial artist", where they needed to create a class that was a superset, in the way that Fighter is a superset.

We should have had a class which Ryu, Kenshiro, Iron Fist, Scorpion, various Bruce Lee characters, Chun Li, and so on and so forth fitted into (maybe people Goku are bit too powerful for a D&D class, so not including him) and it can do some of those but not most of them. I don't really blame older D&D for not doing that - though it was a little weird they went with Monk specifically, but less weird if you think about the martial arts movies of the early '70s (often the hero wasn't a monk, but had been trained by them).

Where D&D has failed, is in failing to update that class in 3E, 4E, and 5E. By 3E, there was zero excuse for making a Monk class that didn't include people like Ryu, and which had such narrow and Shaolin-legend-focused sets of abilities - it was unimaginative, lazy design and mechanically weak. 4E was a little better, because you no longer had to focus purely on Shaolin-like abilities, but it retained the problem that the class, basically, should not be called Monk, or focused on weird supernatural monastic stuff. 5E basically reverted to 3E, which was pretty crap, frankly, and felt like it was a case of "We don't have any good ideas but we need to include this class". Mechanically it's a lot better than 3E, worse than 4E, but it's still called Monk, and still a subset of what it should be.

On top of all this, very concept doesn't even fit well into a lot of D&D settings, but the fact that it exists precludes a lot of other concepts from existing, because they cross over with it.

And this has massive knock-on effects on D&D so we get:
1) Attempts to make other classes good at martial arts via class abilities/subclasses
2) Attempts to make martial arts accessible via Feats, proficiencies, and so on
3) Attemtps to mimic supernatural martial arts stuff via subclasses, spells, etc. for non-Monks

And more. But because Monk has taken up so much ground, none of this ever really works well, at all. And yet MC'ing Monk doesn't work well, because of the way Monk stuff scales, and because Monk hard-dedicates with non-subclass abilities, tons of it's "balance value" to bizarrely specific Shaolin stuff.

TLDR the problem is that Monk is "Mythological Shaolin Monk" specifically and not "Supernatural Martial Artist". This was inexcusable in 3E and beyond. In 5E you can't even get around this properly by re-flavouring, because the mechanics, the hard-baked-in mechanics are specific to Shaolin-type Monks, not supernatural martial artists - this is why all the subclasses are all kind of half-arsed. The "basic" Monk should have been the subclass of a more general Supernatural Martial Artist class.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
I've half a mind to fuse sorcerers and monk together, making them the class that represent the ''power comes from inside'' idea. The class would group the concept of elemental bending ala Avatar, the jedi and other such concept where the character has a inner pool of power that they learn over time to master.

Archetypes:
Dragon Disciple
Elementalist
Chaos Anchorite
so the psion?
It normally boiled down to...

To few Hitpoints...

To low of hitting power.

I think this is applicable from the beginning of the class all the way through at least 3.5 edition.

The original became somewhat decent at high levels (saying that you could fight your way through them to overcome the prior masters), but that took a while to get there.

In 3.X it became more of a specialized Spellcaster bane as it had strong saves and various ways to overcome a Spellcaster on the first round or two. Of course, that was a HIGHLY specialized role and specifically for certain situations and conditions. When those conditions in those situations were met, the Monk was better than just about anyone else in defeating a spellcaster...but otherwise was relatively weak.

In fact, outside of that, as the Monk had a Lower AC they were more susceptible to everything else.

In 5e the Monk has decent hitting power, but once again is somewhat handicapped by a low AC value comparatively to others (IMO). I think it is a little more balanced than it has in the past, but probably could do with a little more HP to counter other frailties it has.
monk predates the third edition by a long time but your right in your assessment and this thread is meant to discuss.
Splitting off the "I am a skilled martial artist" from the "I channel magic through myself to do supernatural things" concepts might be worthwhile. Simply having an unarmoured fighting style for martial classes and an unarmed fighter subtype could do a lot of that.

The issue with the baseline monk is that is has OK performance, but no knobs and levers to crank up its performance through optimisation.
Actually playing a monk can take a lot of tactical thought, since it has a lot of movement and potential resource usage. However although you generally have to try to build a bad monk, you can't push their performance much through system mastery and min/maxing.
If the basic monk is equivalent to the standard sword-and-board champion Fighter, there is no monk equivalent of the Hand crossbow-using Sharpshooter crossbow expert Battlemaster fighter.

Four elements monk also has conceptual issues in that element-benders are full-casters, and a half-caster like the monk class cannot meet expectations as a full caster.

I think before you really get down to the nitty-gritty of deciding what the monk needs, you need to lay out the baseline level of performance that you are aiming for, and the adventuring day assumptions you're making.
Are you aiming for something that functions like a Paladin? Fighter? How good a Fighter?
I have ideas on splitting the martial artist but without destroying monk class as lots of concepts would like a martial art but multiclassing into monk would be a bit much.
martial art going towards something closer to a short ability list or even weapon proficients. with the monk still being the stand out king.

I have also been considering on operating martial arts from the subclasses as it feels like subclasses are just the same thing as a way to fight when they could be far more thematic than that, given the way of the shadow is a ninja it is already a bit weird how it subclasses work so pulling them apart and re building them properly would help.
 



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