D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

[Stalker0]

Technically speaking that shouldn't work (unless you were at large size, since you are only supposed to be able grapple something one size larger than you).

Ah thank you, you jogged my memory. It wasn't enhance ability (which they commonly use that's why I got confused), they used enlarge on the character, that where the advantage to strength checks came from, and as they were large they were able to grapple it.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Ah thank you, you jogged my memory. It wasn't enhance ability (which they commonly use that's why I got confused), they used enlarge on the character, that where the advantage to strength checks came from, and as they were large they were able to grapple it.

Eh, whatever. It's a rule I've literally disregarded in the last week, so I wasn't trying to call you out on it.

 

[Mike Myler]

Zangief is a barbarian not a Monk

also I just recalled that @Mike Myler has a Street Fighter D&D5e conversion on his blog

I was so sad when I found out there was no good way to export that file with all the GIFs working.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That the monk has to have "esoteric or mystic" stuff is just... insanely limiting. Why? Like, I ran a bareknuckle boxer as a monk: he was a Dwarf Open Hand monk. Patient Step was a Dempsey Roll, Flurry of Blows was a fast flurry of punches, and the various kinds of effects he could inflict were from the power of his punches. His recovery thing was just a second wind.

Okay? And I played a mundane Paladin once whose smite was just a very precise attack, healing was morale based, etc. that doesn’t mean the Paladin needs to support that idea in general. Classes having an identity is a good thing.

Like, I put in things that I thought would flavor it better, but I think the concept works way better than fighter: why would a boxer know how to use any weapon? Why would they be able to wear any armor? Also, having a boxer have to wear armor feels wrong for the concept.

The monk makes sense for any sort of unarmored hand-to-hand combatant because it already has all the stuff there for it. Wrestler, Boxer, Savate Master, etc... it all works better within the framework of the monk. Trying to say that the "mystic" stuff has to remain that way or can't be reskinned doesn't make sense.

To me, the monk doesn’t make sense as every sort of Unarmored and unarmed combatant.

I’d rather make an alt feature for the fighter wheel they lose some proficiencies in favor of Unarmored defense: Int than treat the mystic nature of the monk as mundane.
And seriously, give the fighter that variant feature and pick the unarmed FS and Battlemaster archetype, and it’s an excellent boxer.

Because just hitting a wrestler while they are standing isn't really a slam; a suplex is more than just a regular hit and puts them on the ground in a way that feels wrong with just a regular strike. Like, it's not like some wrestlers don't grab and punch people. That sort of support feels rather poor.

So you use tripping attack. Again, the issue here is how grappling works, not how the monk is designed.
The only thing I’d add to the monk to model “wrastlin” is the ability to spend 1 ki as a bonus action when you hit to make it a big hit rather than adding two small hits. Maybe an option to add a secondary effect, like a grapple, trip, forced movement, etc, along with a little extra damage, rather than just adding extra damage. The “big move” moment.

Which, like I already said, absolutely add to the ki feature list. 100%. The class isn’t going to be OP by having some more ways to spend ki in the base class.

I mean, why not? I mean, it's not like grapples, slams, and submissions aren't something a part of actual close combat and actually could add something to the game.

Sure. They should be better handled, though the basic grapple rules are solid and unfairly maligned. Any melee combatant should be able to do that stuff.

It should not be a “monk thing”. Martial arts in the real world sense is an “every weapon using character thing”, not a monk thing.

 

[Immoralkickass]

I will try to summarize why the monk is mechanically weaker than others.

1. Their starter abilities feel like 'image abilities'. Unarmored Defense is a substitute for wearing armor, but its not better than actual armour. The whole point of the ability is to look like you're not wearing armour, but have the near equivalent AC of armour. It hinges of 2 stats, which means a non-min maxer will find their AC to be quite low, and have to spend lots of ASI improving it. At high levels its a very weak feature when you have to pass up powerful magic armours. Martial Arts is to look like you dont have weapons, but deal the equivalent damage of weapons. It starts off about the same a dagger's damage and slowly increases, but its not better than using actual weapons. Actually its a fair bit worse than weapons, since it doesn't have any feat support. It also suffers the same problem as Unarmored Defense, which is you have to pass up powerful magic weapons, or are limited to Monk weapons. Ki-Empowered Strikes is given because they realise this problem.

Unarmored Defense and Unarmored Movement are often compared to the Barbarian's version, which is less restrictive for some reason. Barbs can choose to wear medium armor and use shields to have better AC and still have the bonus speed and still can Rage. Monks are however stuck with a certain image.

2. They have d8 Hit die. So from the above we know Monks deal low-ish damage, and have mediocre AC. D8 is not great, but most melee classes are D10, except Cleric, but they are full casters and usually have heavy armour. Rogues occasionally get in melee, but they have Uncanny Dodge and bonus action hide to help survive. When Monks get hit, it hurts.

3. They benefit little from Crits, but suffer greatly from misses. Low Martial Arts damage die means less extra damage from crits, but each miss is one less Stunning Strike chance.

4. Their main selling point, high movement speed, is not that important. Speed is nice for closing gaps. Once the gap is closed, its a slugfest, and Monks aren't good at slugfests. Speed is good for running away, but there needs to be lots of open space for that. And Mobile is mandatory.

5. Their high level features are weak. Are you looking forward to walking on water, Tongue of Sun & Moon, Timeless Body, and Perfect Self? I am not. The monsters you face get stronger, but at least you can't be aged magically, and can save on those ointments for your backpain.

6. Stunning Strike alone deserves discussion. At low levels, it can stun-lock monsters until its dead, making single strong enemies a non-challenge. At high levels, most monsters have massive bonus to CON saves on top of Legendary Resistances. Trying to burn legendary resistances could back fire by burning through your own Ki.

Overall, Monks are just not good enough when compared to other martials. Their damage is low, and their utility is non-existent outside of Stunning Strike. They are also a bit frail. They are also restricted in equipment and feat choices. They are very fast though, but that means they are better off being a courier, messenger or Grab delivery man.

EDIT: I think Monks are unsatisfying to play also because they get less support from their allies. That Sharpshooter Fighter or GWM Paladin is obviously more deserving of Haste and Bless than the Monk.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I will try to summarize why the monk is mechanically weaker than others.

1. Their starter abilities feel like 'image abilities'. Unarmored Defense is a substitute for wearing armor, but its not better than actual armour. The whole point of the ability is to look like you're not wearing armour, but have the near equivalent AC of armour. It hinges of 2 stats, which means a non-min maxer will find their AC to be quite low, and have to spend lots of ASI improving it. At high levels its a very weak feature when you have to pass up powerful magic armours. Martial Arts is to look like you dont have weapons, but deal the equivalent damage of weapons. It starts off about the same a dagger's damage and slowly increases, but its not better than using actual weapons. Actually its a fair bit worse than weapons, since it doesn't have any feat support. It also suffers the same problem as Unarmored Defense, which is you have to pass up powerful magic weapons, or are limited to Monk weapons. Ki-Empowered Strikes is given because they realise this problem.

Unarmored Defense and Unarmored Movement are often compared to the Barbarian's version, which is less restrictive for some reason. Barbs can choose to wear medium armor and use shields to have better AC and still have the bonus speed and still can Rage. Monks are however stuck with a certain image.

2. They have d8 Hit die. So from the above we know Monks deal low-ish damage, and have mediocre AC. D8 is not great, but most melee classes are D10, except Cleric, but they are full casters and usually have heavy armour. Rogues occasionally get in melee, but they have Uncanny Dodge and bonus action hide to help survive. When Monks get hit, it hurts.

3. They benefit little from Crits, but suffer greatly from misses. Low Martial Arts damage die means less extra damage from crits, but each miss is one less Stunning Strike chance.

4. Their main selling point, high movement speed, is not that important. Speed is nice for closing gaps. Once the gap is closed, its a slugfest, and Monks aren't good at slugfests. Speed is good for running away, but there needs to be lots of open space for that. And Mobile is mandatory.

5. Their high level features are weak. Are you looking forward to walking on water, Tongue of Sun & Moon, Timeless Body, and Perfect Self? I am not. The monsters you face get stronger, but at least you can't be aged magically, and can save on those ointments for your backpain.

6. Stunning Strike alone deserves discussion. At low levels, it can stun-lock monsters until its dead, making single strong enemies a non-challenge. At high levels, most monsters have massive bonus to CON saves on top of Legendary Resistances. Trying to burn legendary resistances could back fire by burning through your own Ki.

Overall, Monks are just not good enough when compared to other martials. Their damage is low, and their utility is non-existent outside of Stunning Strike. They are also a bit frail. They are also restricted in equipment and feat choices. They are very fast though, but that means they are better off being a courier, messenger or Grab delivery man.

EDIT: I think Monks are unsatisfying to play also because they get less support from their allies. That Sharpshooter Fighter or GWM Paladin is obviously more deserving of Haste and Bless than the Monk.

Counterpoint: A Way of Shadows Monk in the Underdark is basically a god-tier class.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Okay? And I played a mundane Paladin once whose smite was just a very precise attack, healing was morale based, etc. that doesn’t mean the Paladin needs to support that idea in general. Classes having an identity is a good thing.

I mean, that's not really a comparison. Boxers and Kung Fu Masters are both martial artists, using similar techniques. This isn't just me "reflavoring" insomuch as finding something that is spiritually similar and using that as a base.Yes, and the class can have the identity of "martial artist" and not just "eastern martial artist". It allows for way more variety in what they can do.

To me, the monk doesn’t make sense as every sort of Unarmored and unarmed combatant.

Why not? Are boxers not martial artists? Do you not think they have their own feats of strength associated with them? This seems like a very arbitrary limit.

I’d rather make an alt feature for the fighter wheel they lose some proficiencies in favor of Unarmored defense: Int than treat the mystic nature of the monk as mundane.
And seriously, give the fighter that variant feature and pick the unarmed FS and Battlemaster archetype, and it’s an excellent boxer.

God no. First off, the boxer has way more in common with the Monk than the Fighter in 5E and I don't even understand how this is an argument. Why have the fighter "lose proficiencies for "Unarmored Defense: Int" when you can just use the Monk chassis? The Monk chassis also has built-in advancement for unarmed attacks, which is yet another thing you'd have to take from the Monk and add to the Fighter.

The Monk works for Western Martial Artists incredibly well. The class would do well to simply diversify a bit more; it'd help it thematically within settings as well to have more options than just Eastern Martial Arts.

So you use tripping attack. Again, the issue here is how grappling works, not how the monk is designed.

If you can only think of a Monk in terms of Eastern Martial Arts, then you're trying to tell me that it's not a problem that this class can't effectively do grappling arts like Judo? Seriously?

The only thing I’d add to the monk to model “wrastlin” is the ability to spend 1 ki as a bonus action when you hit to make it a big hit rather than adding two small hits. Maybe an option to add a secondary effect, like a grapple, trip, forced movement, etc, along with a little extra damage, rather than just adding extra damage. The “big move” moment.

Not how I'd do it, but it's a start, I suppose.

Which, like I already said, absolutely add to the ki feature list. 100%. The class isn’t going to be OP by having some more ways to spend ki in the base class.

I mean, honestly we need to just start giving them features instead of Ki stuff because honestly it sucks to have all these moves and not enough ki to use them. Ki is a good idea, but the devs were very over-reliant on using it to try and balance the whole class and now it's acting as a bottleneck for it.

Sure. They should be better handled, though the basic grapple rules are solid and unfairly maligned. Any melee combatant should be able to do that stuff.

Eh? Some things you need training for. The grapple rules are serviceable, but like the combat they could use some spice.

It should not be a “monk thing”. Martial arts in the real world sense is an “every weapon using character thing”, not a monk thing.

Unarmed combat should be the monk thing. Trying to add anything that isn't Eastern Martial Arts just makes the Fighter class more of a mess than it already is; trying to retrofit it for unarmed combat when you have class that already does that more than adequately doesn't make sense.

Counterpoint: A Way of Shadows Monk in the Underdark is basically a god-tier class.

Hell, in a nighttime skirmish they're nightmarish, especially if the enemy tries to be clever with Darkvision and starts turning out light sources. My brother used one to rather frustrating effect in such a manner: they had a light crossbow with Crossbow Expert and engaged some hobgoblins in a border fort at distance. He'd fire twice then relocate before they could figure out where he was. He managed to distract the entire place while the rest of the party snuck in.

 

[Minigiant]

If it’s a completely different archetype, like say a non-mystical/esoteric warrior, it shouldn’t be a monk. Any mystic/esoteric warrior can be either built as an existing monk, or have a subclass built for them.

But it can't
That's the point.
You can't make a mystical boxer or a mystical wrestler without overriding more of the monks key features.

The point is incorrect. You keep stating your point, but refusing to actually support it with any arguments, examples, etc.

And you keep saying it's easy to do without showing your proof.

For example, to make a mystical wrestler, you might have to:

• Change Unarmored Defense to 10 + Str + Con
• Change the last feature of Martial Arts to damage after a grapple.
• Change the 3 features of Ki
• Change Deflect Missiles to Deflect Strike and make it deflect melee attacks based on Str

That's too much for a subclass.

And I suggested an alt feature that would make the fighter not use armor, and the game already has a very good option for unarmed fighters.

No it doesn't. It has an option for unarmed fighters. It isn't good.

That's like saying a fighter with cantrips replaces the wizard. "It's an option for magic"
No, it doesn't replicate to feeling, image, or playstyle of the wizard anymore than a unarmored unarmed fighter replaces a boxer.

What else is needed, that the base class doesn’t do? What is there other than mobility, being able to fight Unarmored and unarmed, dodge attacks more readily than others, etc?

An explosion attack that isn't garbage? A range over 30ft. A better combo attack. Different types of ki blasts. Other aspect of the genre like afterimages, energy deflection, and "teleportation"

So grappling. Why can’t you just say the thing that is the answer to the question?

Grappling in 5e is what it is. That ain’t on the design of the monk.

However, dealing damage to a grappled creature is absolutely part of the system. Tapping out...isn’t part of real fights. The dragon gives up when you’ve hurt it enough to hit 0hp and you choose to knock it out rather than kill it, or when the dm decides it’s had enough.

Why on earth should there even be a D&D class that models Hulk Hogan, by the way? What a totally left field expectation to even have! Why?

because they are one way people see "magical martial arts" past the 1970s.


If I what to play a Greco-Roman warrior who slams orcs into the ground in nothing but a lioncloth, I should e able to make that character unless it doesn't fit the setting. And to me, it fits many settings.

Same with a mystical boxer who focuses on Str and Dex to deal a heavy knockout blow and might go for body shots to wear down tougher foes first.

The Sun Soul and the 4 Elements monk display how bad the monk pulls off other images of martial artists. And some argue the Drunken Master is bad as well. So the Boxer and Grappler would be hard to fit in as well.

 

[Stalker0]

If I what to play a Greco-Roman warrior who slams orcs into the ground in nothing but a lioncloth, I should e able to make that character unless it doesn't fit the setting.

The barbarian is honestly pretty good for that archetype. Great AC in a loincloth, gets advantage on strength checks (aka for grappling) when raging, plenty of durability. Gets rage damage on the unarmed attacks if/when needed. Take elk totem warrior and you'll be faster than a monk a lot of the time.

 

[Minigiant]

The barbarian is honestly pretty good for that archetype. Great AC in a loincloth, gets advantage on strength checks (aka for grappling) when raging, plenty of durability. Gets rage damage on the unarmed attacks if/when needed. Take elk totem warrior and you'll be faster than a monk a lot of the time.

The issue is that the barbarian doesn't play like how the archetype does and has a flavor mismatch in rage.
It has the stats and bonus to grapples but the mindlessness of rage and the technicality of wrestling conflict.

It would have to go through fighter or monk in flavor but you would have to swap out core features and assumptions.