D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

[Noxrim]

Oh boy, math!

I've yet to evaluate this thread, but I can already see major flaws based on the graph alone.

First off, DPR isn't the only measure of damage. Its the expected value but its not the only significant data analysis for damage. I've discussed a bit on the "The Mathematics of D&D" thread I posted a few weeks ago but I'll try giving a more thorough analysis when I'm afforded the time so we can truly determine whether a monk does have a place on the team as a type of damage-dealer.

I am intrigued. Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this!

 

[Noxrim]

I ran some different numbers, accounting for crits, just focusing on 13th level mostly using the OP's assumptions, and assuming the martials have +1 weapons. Note that the +1 item bonus does not apply to monk's unarmed strikes. I also did a single-weapon rogue because the math is easier.

Monk (base): 20.02
Rogue: 23.5
Fighter: 25.06
Monk (flurry of blows): 25.95
Warlock: 26.55

Since sometimes a Monk will flurry, and sometimes he won't, I would argue that his expected damage output puts him comfortably in the martial tier. The fact that Stunning Strike costs only a single ki, and potentially gives the entire party advantage on the target, is a big deal. Boring? Perhaps. But is the monk underpowered? I don't think so.

I am not sure how you calculated this, but I am getting better numbers for Monk with +1:

Fighter: 25.05
Warlock: 26.55
Monk: 27.35
Rogue: 32.7

Rogue is still doing better with 2 chances to apply Sneak Attack, but the Monk is surpassing the Warlock if given a +1 magic weapon and is using Flurry of Blows.

 

[jgsugden]

Stunning strike is too good not to use constantly, too powerful for a DM to not plan around, and too outsized a part of the 5e Monk's repertoire to limit without deeply undermining the class.

I very strongly disagree. I played one monk from 1 to 19 in 5E, and am playing another one now (currently level 9).

First of all, from level 1 to 4, stunning strike is not an option. At all. If you follow the guidelines for encounterbuilding, experience, etc..., those levels represent about 1/6 the entire career of a PC that goes from level 1 to 20, and 1/4 of the entire existence of a PC that stops at 10th level (underguidelines, time spent at each level is not equal).

Putting that aside, both characters used stunning strike for about 1/3 of their ki uses after 4th level. I also flurried, and used Ki for movement, for disengaging, and for dodge (in one oddly fun combat I managed to use dodge to kill the entire enemy force by blocking off their escapewhen they were in a damaging area). At the highest levels, it was quivering palm that used up a lot of ki, but I also did go invisible and astral a numbr of times.

When we hit a major threat, I would try to get to that threat before it could go and then stun/stun/stun/stun until it was stunned, but often that didn't work out, and even when it did it required a lot of resources. To stun, you need to hit, and then the opponent needs to fail a commonly strong saving throw (and this when you have to develop both your dexterity and wisdom when trying to increase chance to hit and saving throw DCs). If your chance to hit is 70%, and your opponent makes the saving throw 30% of the time, you have less than a 50% chance to stun them on any given hit. If you have a 50% chance to hit and they have a 50% chance to save, that drops to a 25% chance to impact them.

As a DM, I do not generally counterplan against PC abilities. I make sure that I do not put something in the game that they have no answer for at all, and occasionally drop a challenge in that ony the PCs with the hyper specialization could possibly beat, but in general, I let them use their abilities to best challenges. They're the friggin heroes. They need to win to be heroic. If everything is a constant struggle and their abilities re countered left and right, they do not feel very heroic.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I am not sure how you calculated this, but I am getting better numbers for Monk with +1:

Fighter: 25.05
Warlock: 26.55
Monk: 27.35
Rogue: 32.7

Rogue is still doing better with 2 chances to apply Sneak Attack, but the Monk is surpassing the Warlock if given a +1 magic weapon and is using Flurry of Blows.

Well, here's how I did it:

AnyDice

AnyDice is an advanced dice probability calculator, available online. It is created with roleplaying games in mind.

anydice.com

It looks like you're using d10s for the monk's unarmed strikes, and I was looking at 13th level. He doesn't get d10s until 17th level unless there is something I am missing (always possible).

 

[Noxrim]

Well, here's how I did it:

AnyDice

AnyDice is an advanced dice probability calculator, available online. It is created with roleplaying games in mind.

anydice.com

It looks like you're using d10s for the monk's unarmed strikes, and I was looking at 13th level. He doesn't get d10s until 17th level unless there is something I am missing (always possible).

Oh I see. I am actually using d10 for the weapon (versatile Longsword).

 

[FrogReaver]

IMO, an open hand flurry of blows monk should be proning enemies fairly regularly. Prone helps melee allies damage significantly which in turn can be considered as counting as Monk DPR.

Monks have tricks to increase DPR, it just requires allies. Also, by level 15ish a monk can likely stunning strike and flurry of blows every single round. Which even if the chance of landing stunning strike is low, getting 5 or so stunning strikes a day while still doing solid damage and causing prone is pretty strong.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, one of my biggest complaints about the supposed role of Monks has always been that the two things I as a DM have noticed the most about them are their speed and their anti-ranged abilities. Those stick out far more than stunning strike.


That being said, the last time this came around I was convinced of the problem stemming from level 11 on, and also of a few other things. So, here is a quick breakdown of various solutions I took. An important note. I am assuming that monks will not get magical items that improve their defense, speed, or unarmed attacks. I have noted that the vast majority of these items are armors or simply just don't fit the monk or don't exist. Also, monk's don't benefit from most Feats, not only because of MAD, but because they require specific weapons that monks don't use.

Spoiler: The changes

Ki is level + wisdom mod, just gives a little more for higher levels. I know it is a big boost early on, but I think it should work out fine


Class Specific worth mentioning: I made the Way of the Sun Soul and the Way of the Astral Self Wisdom based attackers. Same with 4 elements, partially, though I'm still tweaking that one. This was because I wanted to make a version of the monk that could focus more on increasing wisdom, without feeling like it was only for stunning strike.


Level 10: When the Monk gains Purity of Body, I rewrote it to do the following (I figured it was better than putting a new ability at 11)

At 10th level, your mastery of the ki flowing through you makes you immune to disease and poison.

Every morning after a long rest, you perform a purification ritual. This has removed impure influences from your body
and improved your performance. The following effects now take place.

1. When you use your Martial Arts ability or Flurry of Blows to make a bonus action unarmed strike, you can make an additional unarmed strike.
   
   
2. When you use Step of the Wind, to Dash or to Disengage, your movement speed is increased by 10 ft.
   
   
3. You can spend a ki to take the Dodge action as a Reaction to an attack being declared against you
   
   
4. You can take two reactions (on different turns) before the start of your next turn.

The idea was to boost all of the key ki abilities you gained at level 2, because they never actually get better as the game progresses

The first ability addresses the damage problem. You get 2 strikes as a bonus action, bringing you back in line, and you can boost it to 3 attacks for Ki. The two reactions is because a lot of the monk's defensive ability comes from reactions, and I wanted to have someone who can act multiple times out of turn. And, well, it is excessive perhaps, but even more speed was all I could think of for Step of the Wind

But the big boost I think actually comes from #3. And it addresses a major issue Monks have. Monks are fast enough to get to the enemy, but this sometimes leaves them surrounded. If they are planning for it, they can Patient Defense as a bonus action, but if they get caught off-guard, then they can do it as a reaction, leaving them quite a bit tankier than expected. Which is good since they have generally poor AC once the armored individuals start getting magical gear.


Level 15: I noticed that timeless body was kind of... pointless crap. So I kept going, right around the time for the level 17 boost. And again, I was trying not to add new named abilities, just mod what was there.

At 15th level, your ki sustains you so that you suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can’t be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however. In addition, you no longer need food or water.

Your purification rituals have completed, boosting your performace to the highest levels of natural performance. The following effects apply.

1. You may make a third attack with your attack action.
   
   
2. You may take up to three reactions (on different turns) before the start of your turn
   
   
3. When you use your step of the wind, you may dash and disengage with the same bonus action

Simple, yet effective. The level 10 boost increased their bonus action attacks, but what if you want to use your bonus action for something else? So I gave them the fighters level 11 boost to attack actions. Then increased reactions again, and boosted Step of the Wind. Now it is a single ki for a dash, disengage and +10 spd. Which is a lot, but also... most of the time you only need one or the other, and this allows you to run through a crowd of enemies, which is kind of cool.

And finally, level 20 capstone: Almost all capstone's suck, so I improved this one.

At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points..

Additionally, Flurry of Blows, Distant Eye, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, and the reaction from Deflect Missiles no
longer cost any ki.

Finally, your unarmed strikes gain a +2 to hit and damage and you may take up to four reactions (on different turns) before the start of your turn


Why not? Level 20 is supposed to be crazy, and using your level 2 or 4 abilities for free is going to feel really like you've mastered these techniques. Boost the unarmed strikes, because you likely don't have any and if you want to go fully unarmed, it should be more viable than using a magic item.

A lot of people might tell me this is too much, but I wanted a Monk to feel just as effective as an SS fighter with a magic bow and magic plate, or a Paladin with Magic Plate and a Holy Avenger with GWM. I've boosted a lot of classes for late game play. This just felt like it was going more towards the fantasy of the Monk.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I know this is focused on DPR but a few other ideas that would have made the monk shine. First give the option for calculating AC as 10 + Dex Mod + Wis Mod or instead 10 + Dex mod + Proficiency, it would make the monk less MAD but start with a lower AC which increases regularly while really only maxing at 21 +5 Dex Mod and +6 Proficiency Bonus. They should get Expertise on Athletics or Acrobatics at level 1 it feels like this would play nicely with their niche and allow grapple or shove type builds. At high levels, somewhere around 11+ allow them to spend a ki point to grant advantage on a skill check (as they focus mentally on a single task). It also feels like they should have at least a tier increase in their unarmed attack die. It is a small change to DPR but feels much better for the player.

Good ideas. I had suggested a ki ability where you add your martial arts die plus wisdom mod to all strength and dexterity ability checks until the end of your next turn, gained alongside Stunning Strike. I think I’d revise my previous suggestion and leave out a damage boost at level 5, because Monks do solid damage until level 10-11 or so.

But at level 11ish, I would suggest just adding Wisdom mod to all damage rolls from weapon attacks (which would include unarmed and ranged attacks, both of which are “weapon attacks”), and the ability to add Wisdom mod to all attack rolls until the start of your next turn for 1 ki.

I think a couple ki features alongside stunning strike, and some upgrades to existing features at 11, and the monk can be more interesting and versatile, without losing balance, since they’d mostly all cost ki. Adding wisdom mod to damage for free at 11, IMO, doesn’t add too much to the class, it just feels good and makes it more feasible to play the monk as a damage build.

 

[fearsomepirate]

IMO, an open hand flurry of blows monk should be proning enemies fairly regularly. Prone helps melee allies damage significantly which in turn can be considered as counting as Monk DPR.

Monks have tricks to increase DPR, it just requires allies. Also, by level 15ish a monk can likely stunning strike and flurry of blows every single round. Which even if the chance of landing stunning strike is low, getting 5 or so stunning strikes a day while still doing solid damage and causing prone is pretty strong.

Indirect effects tend to get less attention becaue they're hard to compute. However, in the case of a typical high-level martial character, advantage accounts for a roughly 1/3 increase in damage output. A stunned enemy's damage output drops by 100%, meaning fewer healing resources are consumed, and the chance of saving against Disintegrate or Lightning Bolt drops to 0%. We don't typically tally these up in the monk's column, but they're things a single round of Stunning Strike is responsible for.

 

[fearsomepirate]

A lot of people might tell me this is too much, but I wanted a Monk to feel just as effective as an SS fighter with a magic bow and magic plate, or a Paladin with Magic Plate and a Holy Avenger with GWM. I've boosted a lot of classes for late game play. This just felt like it was going more towards the fantasy of the Monk.

If the Paladin has got Magic Plate & a Holy Avenger, I feel like the least you could do for the monk is grant him a Ring of Protection and a Shortsword Frost Brand or something.