D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

[auburn2]

My personal position, previously stated in this thread, is that Monks aren't particularly underpowered, but that Stunning Strike is overpowered, and is particularly a problem that the other uses for Ki don't compare well.

I've been playing 5e for 5 years and have not found stunning strike to be a problem at all.

Also, this logic again can be used for anything - Sneak attack is so overpowered other uses of actions (shove, grapple, search and at low levels hide and disengage) don't compare well

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I've been playing 5e for 5 years and have not found stunning strike to be a problem at all.

Anecdotes aren't rational arguments. You've explained in detail how you don't care that it completely outshines other Ki uses, so it's obviously not surprising that you don't see any issue, but it is a bit "I see no ships!". I note you have no response re: your previous point re: what you incorrectly saw as a contradiction being refuted.

 

[fearsomepirate]

You're using the optional feature for Monk but not other classes. For example, two weapon fighting kinda isn't optimal anymore for Rogue (if it ever was) now that they can just get advantage every round through Steady Aim. People keep talking about Steady Aim being just for ranged, but it's not. It works for melee as well, it just increases the chance you will be hit back because you're not cunning action away. And then Treantmonk has an arcane trickster rogue using booming blade or green flame blade every melee attack round, so you're attacking with advantage (familiar, hiding, or steady aim), rapier damage, sneak attack damage, and GFB or BB damage. That adds up to a pretty hefty amount of damage.

As for your concerns about monk damage, I absolutely agree. Though Treantmonk does think one of the new subclasses for Monk in Tasha's does bring that subclass up to a decent DPR.

I just now read about Steady Aim, and, if it weren't for the fact that I'm almost done with all my 5e campaigns and am going to take a long break from DMing 5e, I think I'm just about ready to ban this book.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I just now read about Steady Aim, and, if it weren't for the fact that I'm almost done with all my 5e campaigns and am going to take a long break from DMing 5e, I think I'm just about ready to ban this book.

I am the gif of the blinking man


Like...Steady Aim is not a powerful feature. It’s a convenience.

 

[fearsomepirate]

A few observations from the OP:

1. It doesn't look like you're accounting for critical hits. These actually do matter, as things that roll more dice do bigger crits, and this does affect DPR estimates. Notably, Advantage increases crit chance to ~10%, making it even more significant.

2. Damage does plateau, but the Monk does have some of the better defensive abilities at higher levels, Diamond Soul being particularly good.

3. Magic weapons, despite the writers' insistence they don't matter, do tend to come online at high levels. A warlock is less likely to have an item bonus, but a Fighter is highly like to have one, as are the Rogue and Monk.

 

[Mort]

I completely disagree and Monks have been all about stunning attacks since 3e. That is their core feature and it is not IMO boring at all.

If I recall correctly, 3e Monks got stunning fist at 1st level.

5e Monks don't get stunning strike until 5th, that's WAY too late for a "core" feature - forgetting anything else, it's bad design. Kind of like arguing that Monks have amazing saves - sure at 14th level, a level the great majority of campaigns will never see.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I ran some different numbers, accounting for crits, just focusing on 13th level mostly using the OP's assumptions, and assuming the martials have +1 weapons. Note that the +1 item bonus does not apply to monk's unarmed strikes. I also did a single-weapon rogue because the math is easier.

Monk (base): 20.02
Rogue: 23.5
Fighter: 25.06
Monk (flurry of blows): 25.95
Warlock: 26.55

Since sometimes a Monk will flurry, and sometimes he won't, I would argue that his expected damage output puts him comfortably in the martial tier. The fact that Stunning Strike costs only a single ki, and potentially gives the entire party advantage on the target, is a big deal. Boring? Perhaps. But is the monk underpowered? I don't think so.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’d say all that really matters wrt stunning strike is that a lot of players don’t want to have the gameplay of spamming it, but feel they need to in order to be effective.

That’s bad. Therefor it’s appropriate and good for us to discuss how to change that.

 

[Asisreo]

Oh boy, math!

I've yet to evaluate this thread, but I can already see major flaws based on the graph alone.

First off, DPR isn't the only measure of damage. Its the expected value but its not the only significant data analysis for damage. I've discussed a bit on the "The Mathematics of D&D" thread I posted a few weeks ago but I'll try giving a more thorough analysis when I'm afforded the time so we can truly determine whether a monk does have a place on the team as a type of damage-dealer.

 

[CrashFiend82]

I know this is focused on DPR but a few other ideas that would have made the monk shine. First give the option for calculating AC as 10 + Dex Mod + Wis Mod or instead 10 + Dex mod + Proficiency, it would make the monk less MAD but start with a lower AC which increases regularly while really only maxing at 21 +5 Dex Mod and +6 Proficiency Bonus. They should get Expertise on Athletics or Acrobatics at level 1 it feels like this would play nicely with their niche and allow grapple or shove type builds. At high levels, somewhere around 11+ allow them to spend a ki point to grant advantage on a skill check (as they focus mentally on a single task). It also feels like they should have at least a tier increase in their unarmed attack die. It is a small change to DPR but feels much better for the player.