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D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

It would be entirely reasonable for a magic glaive that gave the wielder Extra Attack, didn't require martial proficiency, and used your spell ability mod instead of STR to require attunement.

Which is far more than what the Bracers do. I mean, dang, a full extra attack? That's crazy good.

Using spells isn't something that is unique to one or two classes, either, yet items that allow non-magical classes to cast spells frequently require attunement. In fact, spells are one of the most common class features in the game.

They require attunement because of power. Being able to sling six fireballs a day is far far more powerful than +2 AC. That is six 3rd level slots of power.

Yes, class features entitle you to all kinds of things without attunement. That's why they're class features. I don't really understand what your argument here is. Are you arguing that if several classes can do something, a magic item that lets anybody do that shouldn't require attunement?

But, we just established that items that let you cast spells require attunement. Even for wizards and sorcerers. In fact, those items are generally restricted even further and only usable by those classes.

So, what about "I can wear armor" justifies getting a +2 AC for no attunement that can stack, while not wearing armor means that you have to have an unstackable attunement based item?

Yes, magic items that essentially give you access to class features you otherwise don't have often require attunement.

Wrong.

Okay, so if you're a monk, and you find +2 studded leather armor, wear it and see how having disadvantage on all attacks goes for you. Or, if you don't think attuning to Bracers of Defense is worthwhile, because you feel your 17 AC is more than enough fine, sell them for gold. Or give them to a beggar.

"If you think this item sucks, why don't you try ruining your class or throwing it away" I mean, it isn't like we can rewrite the item...

Oh wait. We can.

See, arguing that we should rewrite the rules of then game, generally is hard to counter by claiming that you can just play by the rules anyways. See, we don't use the Bracers of Defense. That's why I advocate for changing them, because I would like to use them, but they suck as written.
 

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Which is far more than what the Bracers do. I mean, dang, a full extra attack? That's crazy good.

No, that's not "far more than what the Bracers do." +2 to AC is just as good at 20th level as at 1st. By contrast, if you don't get Extra Attack, having a magic melee weapon that does 1d10 damage is weak at 5th level and utterly worthless at 11th.

The equivalent offensive item to BoD would be a magic weapon that
a) doesn't require martial proficiency
b) doesn't require STR
c) has damage output that scales as you level

They require attunement because of power. Being able to sling six fireballs a day is far far more powerful than +2 AC.

Six fireballs? A Ring of Spell Storing allows anyone to cast, for example, one Fireball and a Scorching Ray once per day. It requires attunement.

So, what about "I can wear armor" justifies getting a +2 AC for no attunement that can stack, while not wearing armor means that you have to have an unstackable attunement based item?

Same reason "I can use weapons" justifies getting hit & damage bonuses to your attacks from magic weapons, while "I don't use weapons" doesn't. Bracers of Defense aren't armor. That's what makes Bracers of Defense special. Yes. Not being able to wear armor by definition means anything that acts as armor for you is rare, special, and magical.


Examples?

See, arguing that we should rewrite the rules of then game, generally is hard to counter by claiming that you can just play by the rules anyways. See, we don't use the Bracers of Defense. That's why I advocate for changing them, because I would like to use them, but they suck as written.

Really? Like, when your group has found them in campaigns, you've thrown them away?
 

No, that's not "far more than what the Bracers do." +2 to AC is just as good at 20th level as at 1st. By contrast, if you don't get Extra Attack, having a magic melee weapon that does 1d10 damage is weak at 5th level and utterly worthless at 11th.

The equivalent offensive item to BoD would be a magic weapon that
a) doesn't require martial proficiency
b) doesn't require STR
c) has damage output that scales as you level

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood you.

You are taking a character with one attack, and doubling it, correct? That is exactly what Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers get. In fact, that is THE martial feature. Only fighters do it better.

And, depending on how the item was phrased, you could have meant "they make an additional attack" and that is basically just a free Haste Action. Never seen people at 11th level say that Haste was worthless.

So, how is that worthless to basically turn a wizard into a fighter? Or a Sorcerer into a Ranger? Or a Warlock into a Barbarian? Heck, an extra attack was a good enough feature for a 6th level spell. And if it allowed an 11th level fighter to make 4 attacks, I don't think I need to explain how quickly anyone would grab it.

And, to look at your new item... no, that wouldn't be as good. Because you know what also doesn't require martial proficiency, strength, and scales in damage output as you level? Every single attack cantrip in the game. If this item suddenly was attunement for +int mod to a melee firebolt cantrip, it would be far worse.

Six fireballs? A Ring of Spell Storing allows anyone to cast, for example, one Fireball and a Scorching Ray once per day. It requires attunement.

And a wand of Fireballs also requires attunement, and can cast six fireballs.
A staff of Fire can cast three fireballs, along with other spells, and requires attunement

A Necklace of Fireballs is the only one that doesn't require attunement, and it is a limited use item, like potion.

And. let us not pretend that the Ring of Spell Storing only allows for a single fireball. It allows for a single spell. Which is vastly more powerful.

Same reason "I can use weapons" justifies getting hit & damage bonuses to your attacks from magic weapons, while "I don't use weapons" doesn't. Bracers of Defense aren't armor. That's what makes Bracers of Defense special. Yes. Not being able to wear armor by definition means anything that acts as armor for you is rare, special, and magical.

Great, so you can show me a non-weapon that gives the same bonuses to hit and damage as a weapon but requires attunement, right? Because that is totally a thing someone would make for all those people who can't use weapons.

Oh right, there was only ever one. The Insignia of Claws, only from an adventure, not requiring attunement, and capping at +1, while the weapons get +3. Heck, the spellcaster items from Tasha's don't even just give pluses to hit and damage, they increase Spell DC making them far more powerful and thus, attunement.

Examples?

  • Periapt of Health (Paladin)
  • Adamatine Armor (Spore Druid and some others)
  • Bowl,, Brazier, Censer, Stone of controlling X elemental, along with the Elemental Gems (Any spellcaster with summon, like a Warlock with their Eldritch invocation)
  • Broom of Flying, Winged Boots, and Flying Carpet (multiple casters and Dragon Sorcerers)
  • Cape of the Mountebank (mid-level wizard for Dimension Door)
  • Chime of Opening (low level wizard for Knock)
  • Circlet of Blasting (scorching ray)
  • Cubic Gate (Gate spell and Plane Shift Spell)
  • Deck of Illusions (Major Image)
  • Driftglobe (light or Daylight)
  • Goggle of Night (Gloomstalker and Twilight Cleric)
  • Helm of Comprehend Languages (comprehend Languages)
  • Reincarnation Dust (Reincarnate, form Explorer's Guide to Wildmount)


A handful of others, but I think this makes a pretty big point. Even if quite a few of these are just spells... access to spells is a class feature, just like proficiency in armor. You said that yourself.

Really? Like, when your group has found them in campaigns, you've thrown them away?

No, like no DM has bothered to even give them to us. And the one time I considered giving them to a player, they asked for something else, because the bonus wasn't worth attunement.
 

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood you.

You are taking a character with one attack, and doubling it, correct? That is exactly what Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers get. In fact, that is THE martial feature. Only fighters do it better.

Wearing armor is a martial feature, too. You're engaging in special pleading when it comes to armor. Basically, there are lots of common class features, such as casting spells, making an Extra Attack, and so on that you agree would justify an attunement slot where some magic item grant these to a class that ordinarily couldn't access them...but you want an exception to armor. It seems your thinking that AC-boosting items are just some sort of "standard item" that everyone should have access to, but this is wrong in 5e. They were in 4e, but 5e isn't 4e. I don't know if they were in 3.5, but then, 5e isn't 3.5, either. Clearly, from what's in the books, the whole point of not being able to use armor is you don't have easy access to to increasing your AC.

Wizards, monks, and sorcs do not ordinarily have access to armor. AFAIK, every magic item that allows them increase AC (Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection, Bracers of Defense) requires attunement. Because they can't wear armor. Thus, any item that acts as armor for them is special.

You seem to get sidetracked in your arguments a lot, too. The precise details on how write the item description for a hypothetical INT-attacking glaive that lets a wizard be more Fighter-y is pretty much irrelevant to the point, which is this: It's reasonable for items that let you break outside of your intrinsic class limits to require attunement.

You have not refuted this central point, and largely don't address it, preferring to chase rabbit trails instead. And really, how can you even argue against this? You can't argue that monks have access to armor. They don't. You can't argue that AC-boosting items are normally classified as "armor." They are. You can't argue that WotC was inconsistent in making magical items that act like armor, but bypass armor restrictions, require attunement. Because they were consistent.

And. let us not pretend that the Ring of Spell Storing only allows for a single fireball. It allows for a single spell. Which is vastly more powerful.
A ring of spell storing can hold multiple spells as long as the sum of their levels is less than or equal to 5.

Great, so you can show me a non-weapon that gives the same bonuses to hit and damage as a weapon but requires attunement, right?

Rod of the Pact Keeper. Wand of the War Mage.
 
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auburn2

Adventurer
We tend to have way more magic items than that. Heck, we have more than 3 magic items generally by level 8. You guys have taken a mild recommendation and treated it like scripture.
No we treat what the rulebooks say as rules or at least guidelines.
And, do you not realize how hard it is to take an hour rest during an adventure? That is not a trivial thing, compared to a single action outside of combat. Since you see actions and hand swapping as such a big deal, an hour is enough time to use your action to equip or unequip your shield 600 times.
A lot easier than taking 5-weeks of research to find and buy a suit of studded +1. RAW you should have several short rests in an adventuring day.

We don't play official campaigns. We rarely get downtime (something I don't like), they generally don't charge food, and if they do it is a few silvers, while we can get multiple gold from a single encounter. Transportation is called "walking" and that's free. Food on the road is generally hand-waved because getting enough food to last is trivial.
If you aren't paying for food you are going to have more money than you should. If you do not take downtime there is no possible way you can find a specific magic item you want RAW (other than potions and scrolls).

And, no one ever buys spellbooks. We've rarely seen spell books or spell scrolls ever.
I guess you don't play wizards .... which explains why you don't see bladesingers.

We still tend to pool money, but we also strip enemies of anything valuable and generally have a character or two who is a sorcerer or a monk or something and doesn't need any money for gear, so we do consolidate funds.
I guess you don't cast spells that require valuable components either.


IF the door was unlocked, I don't see why it wouldn't be fairly guaranteed, these aren't modern doors. And the point was simply that you could do it with no hands. Or, you know, walk around with your sword sheathed, so that when you open the door, you can then draw your sword on your turn.
You don't see why you would automatically kick in nor why that would be an action? Really?

And what in the environment is worth interacting with? And, I have no idea what you mean by the door opening and closing before and after initiative. Once a door is open, it is open.
The door. "environment" is the term used in the players handbook. The door opens every time someone opens and closes it. You open it and go through it, the wizard .... er excuse me sorcerer ... behind you fires off a spell and closes it so BBEG can't target him, the monk opens it and goes through and attacks etc, etc, etc. As long as everyone has a free hand they can take an action in addition to opening and closing the door,

You see some grand problem, I see "I can't attack until my turn" which is... how the rules work.
No you can't attack on your turn if you opened the door and then drew your weapon. No instead of using an action to draw your weapon you could run up and puch the bad guy for 1 point of damage. If you had your weapon in one hand you could open the door and attack, both on your turn.

There is no such thing as a "cross class focus"

Sword Bard

War Caster

Ruby of the War Mage

So, let me just take a quick look at all the casters who can natively use shields. Druids? They can use a staff as their focus, no problem with shield and weapon. Cleric and Paladin? Shield is their focus. Warlock? Hexblade as mentioned.
To start with a warcaster can not use a weapon as a focus unleess he is a hex blade, or as you mentionoed a sword bard, at which point warcaster is partially wasted.

Ruby of the warmage is a magic item.

Yeah a sword of college bard, a hexblade and a druid if he uses a staff and not another weapon. Two subclasses and one class if he uses a specific weapon.

So, maybe we are talking Eldritch Knights, Valor Bards and Rangers. They might struggle, and they can all take Warcaster, or use spells that are only verbal, or whose component is a weapon.
No we are talking about all bards except sword bards, all warlocks except hexblades with an invocation, all Druids who don't use a staff, all wizards, all Rangers and all sorcorers

If you have a 15 strength, there is no speed penalty. You also can easily carry it with encumbrance. Also, most characters investing in strength like this start at level 1 with a 16 strength.
Most strength fighters, Barbarians, Paladins and strength Rangers. Not most others.

Half Plate with a feat is 18 AC. Shield makes that 20
Sure, if you have a 16 Dexterity.

Monks need a 20 Dex and 16 Wisdom, or a 20/20 to match those numbers with no armor. That takes more than a single ASI.
For an optimized Monk it takes 1.5 ASIs using point by, so it is doable by 8th level with an ASI and a half feat. By 12th level they have the heavy armor guy beat and he will never catch back up without magic ... and they are doing this while having both no penalty to stealth and having dodge available as a bonus action multiple times a day.

They can also cost gold. That is why they have a gold cost listed in the book.
Sure, they can do anything your DM wants, but "the book" does not list a gold cost for magic items. The DMG says they are not available for purchase, XGE lists a process to get them which involves WEEKS of research (i.e. sweat)

And, man, you realize how trivial weight is in DnD? Like, seriously, you want to say studded leather is heavier, but it is 13 lbs. That is nothing for basically any character I have ever seen. Even a Strength 8 rogue can carry 90 lbs with no issue.
The weight penalty is a bigger "cost" than the attunement penalty. There are more Rgoues out there walking around encumbered right now than there are Monks attuned to three items.

Attunement number is limited, carrying capacity is limited, you are far, far more likely to exceed the latter than you are the former, so logically you should wear bracers over studded if you can.

Maybe higher than you, but so what. I've never seen an issue with handidness or encumberance, but I sure have seen issues with attunement. Maybe you need to consider that your game might not be the norm.
I have seen completely the opposite and your game is full of sword and board fighters you are running out of hands in combat a lot if you are playing RAW. If your DM is hand waving that ..... well it explains it.

No, it isn't. People don't just wear items because they can. And DM's don't just give out items because they can. "This is my pajama armor" isn't a no-brainer, it is completely ludicrous.
DMs don't typically "give out" items. They are typically found on enemies, in dungeons etc. If your character finds and has BOD, it would be foolish not to wear them (at least until you could sell them).

Especially since, again, you can wear light armor to bed with no issue, so you can do this with magical studded leather armor just as easily. And that is a no-brainer, since it doesn't require attunement.
Why would you wear armor to bed ... or at all when you could get the same AC without wearing it? That is just foolish.


Because attunement is limited.
Which is almost never and issue and when it becomes an issue you can get some studded armor.

The Bracers are Rare, meaning you don't expect to see them until 12 level or so. Studded Leather armor is dirt common, in any city you care to visit, probably a lot of towns too. So, why wait an additional 8 levels for your pajama armor?
I am not suggesting you should wait to get bracers so you don't need studded. I am suggesting that if you have bracers you should use them and throw your studded in the trash. If you find magic studded use that (or of you take 3 months off to find and buy some), but until you do that you are as good as you will get as a Rogue with BOD .... better even because you are lighter.

I would absolutely love the enemy to drop his weapon to pick up mine.
Yeah, because being without your weapon is a great situation

Also, if they are close enough to get into melee range with me... why did I drop my weapon instead of... getting into melee range to attack them? That seems incredibly bizarre and makes no sense, If I can make attacks and defeat the enemy, I think I'd do that first.
Yes, like you said you will do that FIRST and then drop your weapon so you will have a free hand .... at which point he can pick it up. You are the one who said this is a viable strategy every trun, not me.

I don't see a whole lot of dex-fighters. If a cleric is getting heavy armor they are going to want that 15 to get full plate. The AC is just too good and too valuable.
I see a whole lot of dex fighters and there have even been threads on this board asking why anyone would be a strength fighter. As far as I can remember, I have never played with a cleric at the table that had a 15 strength. Usually they are going to invest in wisdom, constitution, dexterity or charisma first as these are a lot more useful.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
PC has 3 attuned items and the party finds a 4th item that would make sense for that PC to use, but that requires them to give up one of their already attuned items? That happens a lot.
I asked for an example. I mean "character class X with items A, B, C and D all requiring attunment at 6th level."

Almost all have in my experience - and I've played with a lot of DMs. It makes no sense to not have a market economy for highly useful magic items that are hard to destroy.
Well that is not RAW.

What? You're adventuring under the BIGGEST markets in all of Faerun... you're encouraged to go back and forth to the surface in DotMM.
I said that is the one adventure that it would not have derailed. It still would have taken weeks or months to find a specific magic item because that is what is in the rules.

There are multiple NPCs that want to interact with you on the surface. Plenty of opportunity to stop and shop.......and you can hire someone to put in that week of work.
Ok, in ROF and TOA you can't even buy mundane, normal items at most cities and towns but there is "plenty of time to stop and shop" for magic items? By the way in TOA, people literally die with every day you delay.

A couple of these campaigns I have also DMed (POA, DOMM) and in those I have found nothing in the book that waived the time or methodology required to find a magic item.


Read the rest of the paragraph - in a campaign world that is full of adventurers and high magic (Faerun is known historically for being HIGH MAGIC and full of powerful adventurers - as opposed to a setting like Greyhawk) it is like buying fine art. Where do all the official WotC modules take place?

Yes, like buying fine art! NOT like walking in to Wallmart and buying wall art. Have you ever shopped for fine art? Think about what you just said and imagine you want to buy a real Picasso or Monet. Picasso or Monet would be probably Rare, Very Rare for a special piece. Think about what that is going to take to pull off! Next imagine you want a piece of Legendary artwork, like the Mona Lisa or the Venus De Milo. Imagine what kind of effort it would take to buy that!

Everyone has different RPG experience, but in almost every game I've played through 40+ years of D&D, there was a market for magic items. Sometimes it was easily accessible and open - other times invitation only. Sometimes only through brokers, others involved walking up to a stall at the marketplace.
Ok but that is not RAW in either 1E or 5E. I am not fluent in the other variants to know.

And let us not forget that it is also relatively easy for a PC with downtime and resources to be able to build magic items. It might require a quest to do so, but making low power items at medium and higher level is trivial if you have the time.
RAW It takes 7 months for a 6th level character to create +1 armor. That is AFTER they have the formula and materials. In 40 years of playing D&D I don't think I ever had a campaign with 7 months of downtime. If they use XGE it is less but they have to quest for the materials.
 
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Zubatcarteira

Explorer
Really, just drop the attunement and don't let it stack with Mage Armor so that casters can't abuse it, leave it for mostly Monks and unarmored Barbarians. For everyone else it's just Studded Leather.
 

For people following the conversation, I am not ignoring Fearsomepirate. When I got on this morning, all text of theirs disappeared. I know they responded to me because I checked a seperate browser to see if this was because I was blocked or if there was an issue with the site that I should report.

Normally, I don't comment on people blocking me, I feel that is rude, but I also think it would be rude to simply ignore someone when they respond to you, and I don't want it to appear like I did so. I get enough flak from people as is. And I am not going to respond to their final points, because that would also be rude, in my opinion.
 


No we treat what the rulebooks say as rules or at least guidelines.

Well, you keep responding with "a character of that level can't have that many items" as though a minor guideline buried in Xanathar's is dictating limits. Amusingly, the games with the fewest magical items tend to be the ones where we are homebrewing. We get a lot more when playing pre-written adventures.

A lot easier than taking 5-weeks of research to find and buy a suit of studded +1. RAW you should have several short rests in an adventuring day.

I'm not sure why you think the 5-weeks (theoretical) of looking for the studded leather matters when comparing the attunement time. That is a complete non-sequiter. After you have the item, it takes 1 minute to put on, and since most people don't strip out of their armor during adventures, it is usually a non-issue. Also, I note how this went from "it is shorter to take a six-second action to put on a shield than an hour to attune to an item" to "But an hour is shorter than the five weeks it takes you to find the armor". That doesn't disprove my shield argument in the slightest.

RAW suggests two short rests, but that is far from guaranteed. In fact, this is a commonly discussed problem on these threads. But, even if you have the recommended two short rests, that still doesn't allow you to swap items mid-combat. Yes, it takes an action, but I could pull out a shield in the middle of combat if I needed to. I can't take an hour rest in the middle of combat if I needed to.

If you aren't paying for food you are going to have more money than you should. If you do not take downtime there is no possible way you can find a specific magic item you want RAW (other than potions and scrolls).

I believe the money issue has been addressed repeatedly at this point. Looking at the individual treasure table you can expect 1 to 5 gold on CR less than 4 creatures. That is not including their equipment, which can be sold. A single shortsword can be sold for 5 gp. 5 gold is going to be able to buy you between 10 and 50 meals, and that is if the inn price doesn't include a meal, which generally our DM has the inn price cover food and drink.

This isn't a large expense that we are talking about here.

I guess you don't play wizards .... which explains why you don't see bladesingers.

We've had a few wizards. Not many, and the DM rarely gives out spellbooks either way

I guess you don't cast spells that require valuable components either.

Most spells don't require them, so that would make sense, wouldn't it?

I'm going to guess that you don't drive a Ferrari while wearing a Rollex. Most people don't, so that is a good guess.

You don't see why you would automatically kick in nor why that would be an action? Really?

No, I was saying I don't see why kicking in an unlocked door would require a roll. It didn't require a roll to turn the door handle, why would it require a roll to make a more dramatic entrance?

The door. "environment" is the term used in the players handbook. The door opens every time someone opens and closes it. You open it and go through it, the wizard .... er excuse me sorcerer ... behind you fires off a spell and closes it so BBEG can't target him, the monk opens it and goes through and attacks etc, etc, etc. As long as everyone has a free hand they can take an action in addition to opening and closing the door,

Yeah, we don't bother with that.

The wizard or sorcerer fires a spell... then uses their movement to move around the corner so the BBEG can't target them. We don't need to bother with opening and closing it all the time, it is just extra noise for no real purpose.

No you can't attack on your turn if you opened the door and then drew your weapon. No instead of using an action to draw your weapon you could run up and puch the bad guy for 1 point of damage. If you had your weapon in one hand you could open the door and attack, both on your turn.

Right, but you aren't seeing the scenario.

The Fighter looks over the group, they are ready, he opens the door. Villains are in the room. We roll initiative. The Monk runs in (because they have higher initiative) then the fighter takes their turn.

The Fighter didn't open the door this turn. They couldn't have, it is impossible, because the monk took their entire turn. So, either you are penalizing the fighter for taking an action before their turn, or it is a new turn and the fighter has all of their actions. So they draw their sword and charge in.

In this scenario, there is no problem with having your sword sheathed, the only thing is does is prevent you from attacking before your turn, which you can't do anyways.

To start with a warcaster can not use a weapon as a focus unleess he is a hex blade, or as you mentionoed a sword bard, at which point warcaster is partially wasted.

Ruby of the warmage is a magic item.

Yeah a sword of college bard, a hexblade and a druid if he uses a staff and not another weapon. Two subclasses and one class if he uses a specific weapon.

What does being a magic item mean? Does it not count just because it is an item? That seems kind of silly.

I mis-remembered on War Caster, is just lets you use Somatic Components, which is still generally enough, but that was my mistake.

And, note that Staffs are good weapons for the druid, very very little reason to use anything else. So, two subclasses, one class, and then two other classes if they happen to get shields, maybe three, I can't remember if Artificers get arcane focuses.

So, that is more than a few.

No we are talking about all bards except sword bards, all warlocks except hexblades with an invocation, all Druids who don't use a staff, all wizards, all Rangers and all sorcerers

Except, there is a second consideration. If they don't want a melee weapon, they can still use their focus. Any warlock who puts on a shield can then use their rod in the other hand.

So, you need a class that can use a shield, wants to use a shield, wants to use a weapon, but either also wants to cast spells that have material components or doesn't take warcaster.

That is a pretty narrow field. And, again, staves are pretty good weapon choices, and if they want to be casters... they likely would just be using cantrips anyways.

Most strength fighters, Barbarians, Paladins and strength Rangers. Not most others.

Yeah, you just listed most martial characters who have access to heavy armor and shields. So.. most of them would be fine with needing a 15 strength.

The only one that might get a little MAD is the Cleric, but again, that is a good trade for the cleric anyways.

Sure, if you have a 16 Dexterity.

Which again, if that is your build, say if you are a Dexterity based ranger, that isn't too hard to get. if you are planning on getting Medium Armor Mastery... then you are planning on having or getting a +3 to take advantage of that feat. Why on earth would you take a feat you can't utilize?

For an optimized Monk it takes 1.5 ASIs using point by, so it is doable by 8th level with an ASI and a half feat. By 12th level they have the heavy armor guy beat and he will never catch back up without magic ... and they are doing this while having both no penalty to stealth and having dodge available as a bonus action multiple times a day.

Huh?

Point buy maxes at 15. Optimization would be Wood Elf I guess, that gets you 17 and 16 (which isn't optimized in my opinion, but whatever) A single ASI gets you 18 and 17... which isn't 20/20. A half feat gets you 18/18... which is 18 AC. The EXACT same as Platemail. (Or they could get 20/16 which is better but also still just an 18 AC)

A mid-level fighter with plate and shield has 20 AC, so I don't know what you could possibly mean by a heavy armor character never catching up without magic. The Monk hasn't even caught up to the HEavy Armor guy yet. They need another 2 feats. It is 3.5 ASIs minimum. Which is 16th level.

And sure, no penalty to stealth. That is a big factor in wearing heavy armor, but since the baseline Monk can NEVER exceed that AC without magic, and the Fighter could easily have 21 without magic, that is an opportunity cost.

Sure, they can do anything your DM wants, but "the book" does not list a gold cost for magic items. The DMG says they are not available for purchase, XGE lists a process to get them which involves WEEKS of research (i.e. sweat)

RarityCharacter LevelValue
Common1st or higher50–100 gp
Uncommon1st or higher101–500 gp
Rare5th or higher501–5,000 gp
Very rare11th or higher5,001–50,000 gp
Legendary17th or higher50,001+ gp


The weight penalty is a bigger "cost" than the attunement penalty. There are more Rgoues out there walking around encumbered right now than there are Monks attuned to three items.


Attunement number is limited, carrying capacity is limited, you are far, far more likely to exceed the latter than you are the former, so logically you should wear bracers over studded if you can.

Probably not, but maybe. Also, again, encumberance is a trivially easy problem to solve. Unless your DM specifically goes out of their way to overencumber you, then it really doesn't come up.

But the opportunity cost of these Rare items with attunement worth as much as 5,000 gold being only better than mundane, dirt cheap armor because of weight, if you are worried about encumberance... doesn't that just say it all?

I have seen completely the opposite and your game is full of sword and board fighters you are running out of hands in combat a lot if you are playing RAW. If your DM is hand waving that ..... well it explains it.

OR, and this is the truth, the handidness just doesn't come up because it is a solved problem. You have still not shown anything except opening doors that seems like it would be any issue, and we don't tend to open new doors until the fight is over.

DMs don't typically "give out" items. They are typically found on enemies, in dungeons etc. If your character finds and has BOD, it would be foolish not to wear them (at least until you could sell them).

Dude... you realize that the DM put them in the dungeon for you to find right? That is what "give out" means. I'm not saying a little gnome in red robes handed them to us out of his magic sack, but if the DM doesn't place the items for us to find... there is nothing to find.

Why would you wear armor to bed ... or at all when you could get the same AC without wearing it? That is just foolish.

Attunement slots
5,000 gold price tag
I can do it from level 1 to 3, instead of waiting til level 5 or higher

I mean, you are the one so worried about being attacked while you sleep that you will use an attunement slot on an item that is utterly worthless to you in any other possible situation, so why not start protecting yourself from the beginning instead of hoping for a magical set of non-armor?

Which is almost never and issue and when it becomes an issue you can get some studded armor.

Think about that for a second. If attunement becomes an issue, you can replace a rare magic item with mundane, low level armor.

Doesn't that make the item seem... kind of worthless?

I am not suggesting you should wait to get bracers so you don't need studded. I am suggesting that if you have bracers you should use them and throw your studded in the trash. If you find magic studded use that (or of you take 3 months off to find and buy some), but until you do that you are as good as you will get as a Rogue with BOD .... better even because you are lighter.

Which seems rather silly, when the BoD are worth a heck of a lot more, and are more useful as a bargaining chip or emergency wealth stash than being used for their intended use.

Yeah, because being without your weapon is a great situation

They didn't attack me, and I can just grab their weapon. Or my backup weapon that I dropped my first weapon to get out. Heck yes that is a great situation. If I can get the enemy to waste a turn I'm doing great.

Yes, like you said you will do that FIRST and then drop your weapon so you will have a free hand .... at which point he can pick it up. You are the one who said this is a viable strategy every trun, not me.

I said "If for some reason", so give me the reason? You are the one who keeps insisting people need free hands all the time in combat, so what do I need that free hand for? Personally, we almost never drop our weapons, because there is no reason to have a free hand.

I see a whole lot of dex fighters and there have even been threads on this board asking why anyone would be a strength fighter. As far as I can remember, I have never played with a cleric at the table that had a 15 strength. Usually they are going to invest in wisdom, constitution, dexterity or charisma first as these are a lot more useful.

shrug

I think charisma is pretty worthless for a cleric. And Dex is easily dropped in favor of using that heavy armor and getting strength. Con and Wisdom are important though.

And, I've seen those threads, but they often do downplay just how hard to hit a sword and board fighter can be. A strength based fighter with a rapier and Defensive Duelist can pretty trivially hit 24 AC on an attack per turn. No magic, just a reaction. Makes for a solid tank.
 

Really, just drop the attunement and don't let it stack with Mage Armor so that casters can't abuse it, leave it for mostly Monks and unarmored Barbarians. For everyone else it's just Studded Leather.

I'm even fine letting it stack with mage armor. 15+Dex is good, but most mages aren't going to be running around with high Dex, and the best they could get without Shield is 20 AC. Which again, isn't that hard for the martials to get or exceed.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
I haven't figured out the math yet, but can anyone determine what the DPR of a monk would be if they only used Stunning Strike one per round and only used Flurry of Blows if the Stunning Strike landed?

So a 12th level monk would attack twice, if at least one hit he would try Stunning Strike. If the Stunning Strike failed he would use Martial Arts for his bonus action and that is it. If the Stunning Strike succeeded he would spend another Ki for Flurry of Blows and on the following round would try one Stunning Strike and would use Flurry of Blows since the creature would still be stunned for their next round. With 12 Ki a monk could keep this up for at least 6 rounds (probably 8 or more since the Stunning Strike would fail about half the time), which should be enough for two tough combats before needing a short rest assuming he doesn't use any Ki on mooks or easy fights.

Of course a stunned opponent also gives everyone else in the party advantage on their attacks and it reduces the opponents damage to 0 for a round. But even without that I think the monk's DPR would be pretty darn good.

As I said above, I haven't figured out the math yet, but here are the stats I am going to assume. Monk starts with at least a 16 in Dex and Wis. With Tasha's rules for customizing your origin, every race in the game can get a least a 16 in both using point buy, and all except humans if you use the standard array. Boost Dex to 20 and Wis to 18 at 12th level.

For the opponent I was going to assume an AC of 17 (from the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating from the DMG p. 274) and a Con save of +6. This would give the monk a 45% chance of succeeding on a Stunning Strike when attempted.

For reference, I will point out that a Behier (CR11), Beholder(CR13), and Death Slaad(CR10) all have a Con save of +4. The Arcanaloth(CR12) has a Con save of +2. The Archmage (CR12) has a Con save of +1. Demons do better with the Nalfeshnee(CR13) having a Con save of +11, but the Yochlol(CR10) has a Con save of +4. Devils have the Erinyes(CR12) with a Con save of +8 and the Horned Devil(CR11) with a Con save of +5.*

Edit to add more creature Con saves: Remorhaz(CR11) +5, Roc(CR11) +9, Stone Golem(CR10) +5, Iron Golem(CR16) +5 (And yes, golems can be stunned. Also, while golems have advantage to saves vs. magical effects, as far as I can tell Stunning Strike is not magical), Vampire(CR13) +4 and a Young Red Dragon(CR10) +9. Really I am thinking I should lower the Con save to +5 for the DPR calculation. If the creature has a high Con save, just don't use Stunning Strike.

*And just for fun, the Tyrannosaurus Rex(CR8) has a Con save of +4, so an 8th level monk with a 16 wisdom could stun one 45% of the time with one hit.
 
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Lord Twig

Adventurer
Finally tried my hand at some math for my proposal above. I'm not a mathematician, so I might be wrong on this, but I think it might be right, or at least fairly close. Anyway, here it is:

12th level Monk with 20 Dex, 18 Wis, +9 to hit, 1d8+5 damage, Save DC 16. Opponent AC 17, Con save +5.

If the creature is not stunned to begin with, and the monk attacks using Stunning Strike if either of the first two strikes hit, and uses Flurry of Blows only if the creature is stunned, his DPR is 31.1157. I believe a Fighter using a greatsword with the Great Weapon Fighting style and 3 attacks a round is doing 27.25 DPR. That is without a subclass though, so no increased critical range or combat superiority dice, which would bring that up. Also, I think a Warlock using Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast and Hex is doing 28.65 DPR. So it is above Treantmonk's "baseline".

Breaking it down a bit more.
If the monk stuns on the first attack his DPR is 37.655. Cost 2 ki.
If the monk stuns on the second attack his DPR is 34.825. Cost 2 ki.
If the monk fails to stun his DPR is only 19.2. Cost 1 ki. (Or 0 ki 12.25% of the time if the first two attacks miss completely)
The monk's chance to stun while only trying once per round is 43.875%.

If the creature starts the round stunned the monk's DPR is 36.91 and his chance to stun again is 49.25%.

With an average chance of stunning a creature round over round of 46.5625%, the Monk's average DPR is 34.649905375 and he is spending ~1.5 ki per round. So he can maintain that DPR for 8 rounds.

Ok. Now prove me wrong, because I think I just showed that the monk beats the baseline DPR, and I didn't even add in the extra damage from other characters taking advantage of the stunned creature.
 
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auburn2

Adventurer
I'm not sure why you think the 5-weeks (theoretical) of looking for the studded leather matters when comparing the attunement time. That is a complete non-sequiter. After you have the item, it takes 1 minute to put on, and since most people don't strip out of their armor during adventures, it is usually a non-issue. Also, I note how this went from "it is shorter to take a six-second action to put on a shield than an hour to attune to an item" to "But an hour is shorter than the five weeks it takes you to find the armor". That doesn't disprove my shield argument in the slightest.
It matters because you rarely have 5 weeks between adventures. You rarely have 2 weeks.

RAW suggests two short rests, but that is far from guaranteed. In fact, this is a commonly discussed problem on these threads. But, even if you have the recommended two short rests, that still doesn't allow you to swap items mid-combat. Yes, it takes an action, but I could pull out a shield in the middle of combat if I needed to. I can't take an hour rest in the middle of combat if I needed to.
Meh ... how often are you going to need that other item you want to attune to in the middle of combat. And it is 2 short rests and a long rest per day.



I believe the money issue has been addressed repeatedly at this point. Looking at the individual treasure table you can expect 1 to 5 gold on CR less than 4 creatures. That is not including their equipment, which can be sold. A single shortsword can be sold for 5 gp. 5 gold is going to be able to buy you between 10 and 50 meals, and that is if the inn price doesn't include a meal, which generally our DM has the inn price cover food and drink.
RAW comfortable lifestyle is 2gp per day, so that short sword lasts two and a half days, not 50 meals. I find when adventuring it is usually more than this - buying horses, ropes, adventuring gear, passage on ships, tickets to the ball etc.


We've had a few wizards. Not many, and the DM rarely gives out spellbooks either way



Most spells don't require them, so that would make sense, wouldn't it?
For a wizard all spells require a spellbook. Yes if he loses it or it is destroyed he can still cast spells he had prepared, but he loses the onees he didn't and can't anny more spells ... ever until he replaces the book.


I'm going to guess that you don't drive a Ferrari while wearing a Rollex. Most people don't, so that is a good guess.
Not a Ferrari, but I do have 7 cars including a Mercedes S65 AMG which costs just as much as a Ferrari, a Jaguar XRK and a Corvette.

No, I was saying I don't see why kicking in an unlocked door would require a roll. It didn't require a roll to turn the door handle, why would it require a roll to make a more dramatic entrance?
Because you are not turnign the handle. It is typically a strength check to force a door.


So, you need a class that can use a shield, wants to use a shield, wants to use a weapon, but either also wants to cast spells that have material components or doesn't take warcaster.

That is a pretty narrow field. And, again, staves are pretty good weapon choices, and if they want to be casters... they likely would just be using cantrips anyways.
You are forgetting characters that want to wield a 2-handed weapon.


Huh?

Point buy maxes at 15.
20 Dex/16 Wisdom at level 8 with 1.5ASIs is doable a number of ways with many races. Start with 17/16 and it is half a feat and an ASI like I said.

The arguement is that a fighter in non-Magic plate with a non-magic shield is as good as a Monk with BOD. A normal shield is the same as BOD, that is the entire argument. I am pointing out that at level 8 those two will be equal and at level 12 and beyond the Monk will be better unless the fighter gets a magic item to improve AC. On top of being equal at level 8 in terms of AC, the monk with BOD will get more attacks and doesn;t have to lug around plate and a shield and doesn't roll steath with disadvantage ... so they are not really equal.

A mid-level fighter with plate and shield has 20 AC, so I don't know what you could possibly mean by a heavy armor character never catching up without magic. The Monk hasn't even caught up to the HEavy Armor guy yet. They need another 2 feats. It is 3.5 ASIs minimum. Which is 16th level.
Again the arguement is BOD is the same as a shield. A Monk with BOD will have the same AC at level 8 (as noted above not really equal, but the same AC) and at level 12 and beyond will have a higher AC.


RarityCharacter LevelValue
Common1st or higher50–100 gp
Uncommon1st or higher101–500 gp
Rare5th or higher501–5,000 gp
Very rare11th or higher5,001–50,000 gp
Legendary17th or higher50,001+ gp
Value and cost are two different things.


Probably not, but maybe. Also, again, encumberance is a trivially easy problem to solve. Unless your DM specifically goes out of their way to overencumber you, then it really doesn't come up.

Attunement is a trivially easy problem to solve, and if you are picking up swords, shidlds and armor off of every enemy you kill, you are going to get encumbered pretty darn quickly.

Further the 10,000 gold you are lugging around to buy studded leather with weighs 200lbs.

OR, and this is the truth, the handidness just doesn't come up because it is a solved problem. You have still not shown anything except opening doors that seems like it would be any issue, and we don't tend to open new doors until the fight is over.
Opening doors was your example, as was it is fine to drop your weapon.

Attunement doesn't come up because it is a solved problem. In the unlikely case you have too many items, attune to what you want, then change it if you need.

Dude... you realize that the DM put them in the dungeon for you to find right? That is what "give out" means. I'm not saying a little gnome in red robes handed them to us out of his magic sack, but if the DM doesn't place the items for us to find... there is nothing to find.
Presumably he rolls on tables .... and that is why my party got a useless magic shield instead of something useful (like BOD).


Attunement slots
5,000 gold price tag
I can do it from level 1 to 3, instead of waiting til level 5 or higher
A Rogue does not get studded leather at level 1 to start with, and I still don't know why you want to sleep in armor all the time. If you are out in the wilderness maybe. Do you wear a leather jacket to bed at night at home.

I mean, you are the one so worried about being attacked while you sleep that you will use an attunement slot on an item that is utterly worthless to you in any other possible situation, so why not start protecting yourself from the beginning instead of hoping for a magical set of non-armor?
No I would use an attunement slot on that if I had 3 other items to attune to, but if I didn't? Sure I would!

I neve said I hope for a magical set of non-armor, I said if I had it and had the attunement slots I would use it. If I had it and it was not an attunement item, then it is a no brainer to use it.

My character in one game has a pipe that can blow smoke rings that can be formed to anything I want. The pipe gives me no combat bonuses, no armor bonuses, no in-game skill bonuses (yet), no bonus if I am caught in my pajamas, but I have it and I use it because why wouldn't I? Guess what else, if I needed to attune to it to use it I would be attuned to it.


Think about that for a second. If attunement becomes an issue, you can replace a rare magic item with mundane, low level armor.
If it becomes an issue sure. If it doesn't no need to.

Doesn't that make the item seem... kind of worthless?
Nope. Just like the pipe I talked about above.

They didn't attack me, and I can just grab their weapon. Or my backup weapon that I dropped my first weapon to get out. Heck yes that is a great situation. If I can get the enemy to waste a turn I'm doing great.
He is not wasting a turn. RAW it is an interact with an object for him, just like it is for you. He can pick up your weapon and attack you with it that same turn, just like you could if it was still on the floor on your turn. Further if you are a shield-wearing character with 3 attunement items it is a safe bet that weapon is magical to boot.

shrug

I think charisma is pretty worthless for a cleric. And Dex is easily dropped in favor of using that heavy armor and getting strength. Con and Wisdom are important though.
I think Charisma is a lot more useful than strength on a cleric or for that matter a high armor class. I guess if your game is mostly combat maybe not, but a character with a low charisma is very limited in the games I play, as is a character who gets disadvantage on stealth checks. That is two strikes against such a character for a few points of AC that probably don't matter much.
 

Something about your math looks wrong to me, but I can't put my finger on it.

If all four attacks hit, that is 1 ki and 4d8+20 which is 38 average damage.

I think that is where I am losing you, partially. 1) I'm bad at the "damage scaling based on AC" calculation, but more importantly 2) I don't see how you are getting 8 rounds with stun and Ki. That would cost 16 Ki, and you only have 12.

Additionally, 46.5% chance of stun is a pretty low chance actually, and if you hit, spend ki, and fail, then try again, then they have to spend the ki again, so it could cost them 3 ki to pull that off, which is 25% of their total ki. That is a heavy resource cost.

Also, again, bad at the AC scaling damage, but Eldritch blast at 12th level with 20 Cha is going to be 3d10+3d6+15, that is an average of 42. If I assume you are taking one attack and counting it a miss, I think that drops it to closer to that 28, but they might be working with a different AC assumption, or not counting the advantage on the hits, and assuming stun comes online only for the flurry.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
Something about your math looks wrong to me, but I can't put my finger on it.

If all four attacks hit, that is 1 ki and 4d8+20 which is 38 average damage.
You need to remember to add extra damage from critical hits, and if you add advantage that doubles your chance to crit and reduces the chance to miss by a lot. Those combined really pushes up your DPR.
I think that is where I am losing you, partially. 1) I'm bad at the "damage scaling based on AC" calculation, but more importantly 2) I don't see how you are getting 8 rounds with stun and Ki. That would cost 16 Ki, and you only have 12.
You only try to stun once per round. If you hit and stun, you don't need to do so again. If you hit and fail to stun just give up and try again next round. If you miss, then hit, you try to stun. If you miss your first two attacks or fail to stun in your first two attacks don't waste the ki on a flurry and just use your bonus action martial arts attack.
Additionally, 46.5% chance of stun is a pretty low chance actually, and if you hit, spend ki, and fail, then try again, then they have to spend the ki again, so it could cost them 3 ki to pull that off, which is 25% of their total ki. That is a heavy resource cost.
And this is where I believe people get it wrong. They get so focused on trying to get the stun to stick that they blow all of their ki in one round of attacks. Don't do that unless you REALLY need to. You spend 1 ki per round on Stunning Strike. If it doesn't work, don't worry about it and go to the next round. You never spend ki on Flurry of Blows unless they have advantage (the creature is stunned). So half the time you fail to stun and only spend 1 ki. The other half you do stun and you spend 2 ki, 1 for Stunning Strike and 1 for Flurry of Blows. And a little over 12% of the time you miss with your first two attacks and don't spend any ki at all. Don't try to stun with your Martial Arts attack, it is not worth it if you want to maximize your DPR.
Also, again, bad at the AC scaling damage, but Eldritch blast at 12th level with 20 Cha is going to be 3d10+3d6+15, that is an average of 42. If I assume you are taking one attack and counting it a miss, I think that drops it to closer to that 28, but they might be working with a different AC assumption, or not counting the advantage on the hits, and assuming stun comes online only for the flurry.
The actual calculation is (5.5+3.5+5)x.6 + (11+7+5)x.05 = 9.55 x 3 = 28.65. You have a 60% chance to hit plus a 5% chance to crit.
 

It matters because you rarely have 5 weeks between adventures. You rarely have 2 weeks.

You know, this whole 5 weeks thing has been bothering me, I wasn't quite sure where you are getting it from, but I didn't bother to look it up.

Just read through the DMG and Xanathars... and it looks like it takes a single week. So, maybe two or two and a half if you combine the selling and the buying into two seperate rolls. So, I have no idea where you got this 5 week number from it seems to be another homebrew rule of your table.


Also, still, this made up number doesn't disprove the point. Equipping a shield = 1 action. Attuning to a magical item = 1 hour. Equipping a shield is faster than attuning to a magical item.

Meh ... how often are you going to need that other item you want to attune to in the middle of combat. And it is 2 short rests and a long rest per day.

Seeing as I mentioned the short rests, and the long rest is obvious, not sure why you felt the need to tell me what I already obviously knew.

And, speaking of obvious, if I had it attuned before switching over the BoD, obviously it was an item I felt it was neccessary to have ready to go. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have bothered to attune to it in the first place. And, it doesn't need to be the middle of combat. It could be fifteen minutes before the combat, still won't be able to attune to it, since it takes an hour.


RAW comfortable lifestyle is 2gp per day, so that short sword lasts two and a half days, not 50 meals. I find when adventuring it is usually more than this - buying horses, ropes, adventuring gear, passage on ships, tickets to the ball etc.

And a Comfortable lifestyle involves rent and a lot more than just meals per day. That's why meals are listed seperately, because buying food (the thing you were accusing us of not doing) is not the only thing you do under a lifestyle expense.

Also, why be such a big spender? There is nothing wrong with modest which doubles the time you just listed if I wanted to go with lifestyle. Which I didn't. I was talking solely about meals.

For a wizard all spells require a spellbook. Yes if he loses it or it is destroyed he can still cast spells he had prepared, but he loses the onees he didn't and can't anny more spells ... ever until he replaces the book.

Yes, I understand how wizards work. Most of our DMs don't go around ruining primary features of our player characters.

Sure, they could destroy the wizard's spellbook, and therefore they should spend massive amounts of money to make multiple copies to hide in various bolt holes around the world... but we don't, because it isn't exactly fun to make them lose everything. Because, even if you get a new spellbook, it won't have all of your spells you didn't have prepared in it, because you have to copy those down, and you don't have the spell formula to copy.

Not a Ferrari, but I do have 7 cars including a Mercedes S65 AMG which costs just as much as a Ferrari, a Jaguar XRK and a Corvette.

Well, you are clearly in the top percentage of wealth then. My family's newest and nicest car is my 2005 SUV, which is in the repair shop after I was rear-ended by a lady in a truck.

I also note that you didn't mention the Rollex :p


Because you are not turnign the handle. It is typically a strength check to force a door.

And yet, you only call for a roll when the situation is in doubt. The players could obviously open the door, there is no doubt, so why force them to roll?

Also, all of this has been assuming there isn't a player with a free hand at all near the door, so if the DM wanted to try and force a roll... then the rogue can just open the door for the fighter. There is literally no point in a roll, so why waste people's time?

You are forgetting characters that want to wield a 2-handed weapon.

Not a lot of spellcasters weilding two-handed weapons, since we were talking about spellcasting with a weapon and a shield. Also, if you are using a two-handed weapon, spellcasting is even easier.

Yes, in addition to the spellcasting we were talking about, some people might want to use a big weapon. That is called a choice, and they could just as easily be using a versatile or one-handed weapon. So, I didn't really feel the need to state the obvious.

20 Dex/16 Wisdom at level 8 with 1.5ASIs is doable a number of ways with many races. Start with 17/16 and it is half a feat and an ASI like I said.

The arguement is that a fighter in non-Magic plate with a non-magic shield is as good as a Monk with BOD. A normal shield is the same as BOD, that is the entire argument. I am pointing out that at level 8 those two will be equal and at level 12 and beyond the Monk will be better unless the fighter gets a magic item to improve AC. On top of being equal at level 8 in terms of AC, the monk with BOD will get more attacks and doesn;t have to lug around plate and a shield and doesn't roll steath with disadvantage ... so they are not really equal.

20/16 is a total of AC 18.

AC 18 is the AC of Full Plate, a completely non-magical item. You claimed, to remind you, that with an ASI and a half-feat "By 12th level they have the heavy armor guy beat and he will never catch back up without magic" By level 12, the Monk without any magical items can at best have an AC of 19. A fighter with plate and shield is still at 20.


Now, if you want to argue a Monk with those scores and BoD, great, the monk can have 21 AC... And a fighter with Full Plate, a shield, and Defensive Fighting Style has an AC of 21, so... how is it that he is beat and can never catch up without magic? It seems instead like the Monk needed magic to be able to catch up with the fighter. Magic, and three ASIs. What did the fighter need? Gold, or to scavenge some Full Plate from an enemy. In theory, if they had the money, 21 AC could be achieved by a 1st level fighter. You need a level 12 monk with a rare magic item, to match. Level 16 if you want to actually beat them. Are you seeing the discrepancy?

And, generally, if you are going to compare a character with a magical item to one without, the character with the magical item should be better off. And if you give similiar items to both, they should be equal. Give the fighter a +2 Shield that is the same rarity as the BoD... and they blow the monk out of the water. The monk might be able to catch back up, if the fighter isn't using the Defensive style, but if they are, the Monk needs a SECOND magical item to match their AC.

Also, I don't know how your monk is getting more attacks than a 12 level fighter, unless you are talking about spending Ki for Flurry. And "lugging around" the stuff that makes you effective isn't that much of a burden. Especially for a strength fighter.

Value and cost are two different things.

Ideally they aren't. Things shouldn't cost more than they are worth. And something that can't be sold isn't given a value. Sure, I guess an insurance investor might give it a value, but concept is still "if I sell this"

Attunement is a trivially easy problem to solve, and if you are picking up swords, shields and armor off of every enemy you kill, you are going to get encumbered pretty darn quickly.

Further the 10,000 gold you are lugging around to buy studded leather with weighs 200lbs.

Doesn't really matter what it weighs in the city, since we aren't adventuring, does it? And it is a lot lighter as 1,000 platinum.

Opening doors was your example, as was it is fine to drop your weapon.

You haven't given me anything else, and you are the one making the claim. I don't tend to support other people's arguments for them

Presumably he rolls on tables .... and that is why my party got a useless magic shield instead of something useful (like BOD).

Which isn't RAW. Sure, you can, but you can also just choose to put things in. Randomly rolled magic items are a bit of a blight in my opinion.

(We had a game once where we had saved a celestial realm, and the magic angel dwarves brought us to their forge to give us items. DM rolled. One player got an Oathbow, one player got a Vorpal Sword, one player got a Defender.... I got a shield of Expression. A common magical item that was worse than the magical shield I was already using.)

A Rogue does not get studded leather at level 1 to start with, and I still don't know why you want to sleep in armor all the time. If you are out in the wilderness maybe. Do you wear a leather jacket to bed at night at home.

IT was your example that you needed AC while sleeping. Presumably you are worried about being attacked at night. Light Armor can be slept in with no penalty.

And, they don't get it sure, but the only limit is the money, and they could potentially get 45 gold during level 1.

No I would use an attunement slot on that if I had 3 other items to attune to, but if I didn't? Sure I would!

I neve said I hope for a magical set of non-armor, I said if I had it and had the attunement slots I would use it. If I had it and it was not an attunement item, then it is a no brainer to use it.

My character in one game has a pipe that can blow smoke rings that can be formed to anything I want. The pipe gives me no combat bonuses, no armor bonuses, no in-game skill bonuses (yet), no bonus if I am caught in my pajamas, but I have it and I use it because why wouldn't I? Guess what else, if I needed to attune to it to use it I would be attuned to it.

If I had to be attuned to an item that was just a glorified prop I wouldn't attune to it.

Attunement slots run out fast. I'm not saying I would never use any magical item that didn't have a defined use. Sure, if I had that pipe my character might use it too, sounds like a fun toy. But attunement? Nope, I would never attune to it. It simply isn't worth the cost.

And so, again, if your use for this item is literally "if I have nothing better, why not" then it isn't a good item. There should not be a rare magical item that costs attunement that should be comparable to a pipe that makes magic smoke rings.

If it becomes an issue sure. If it doesn't no need to.

Missing the point of "powerful magic item" = mundane armor. You know, the point that is a bit of a concern?

Nope. Just like the pipe I talked about above.

Again, "rare magic item that requires attunement" = Magic pipe that makes smoke circles. The fact you can even make these comparisons highlights that this item is not worth attunement.

He is not wasting a turn. RAW it is an interact with an object for him, just like it is for you. He can pick up your weapon and attack you with it that same turn, just like you could if it was still on the floor on your turn. Further if you are a shield-wearing character with 3 attunement items it is a safe bet that weapon is magical to boot.

Well, sure, if I was a shield wearing character with three attuned items. Then again, I'd also be fairly high level... so, good bet that that enemy might also have some magical gear.

But again, I don't even see why I would need to drop the weapon in the first place. I just mentioned it because you seem to insist that you must always have a free hand during combat, but you have never once supported that. I've made some guesses, but then showed that those aren't things that come up. So, how about you tell me why I would attack an enemy and then drop my weapon? What is the situation where that free hand is that important?

I think Charisma is a lot more useful than strength on a cleric or for that matter a high armor class. I guess if your game is mostly combat maybe not, but a character with a low charisma is very limited in the games I play, as is a character who gets disadvantage on stealth checks. That is two strikes against such a character for a few points of AC that probably don't matter much.

You would be right about the game with the one DM, but the other is 90% roleplaying with quite limited combat.

And, Charisma is something that you need to invest it pretty heavily for it to be worth it. And since we usually have a bard, warlock or paladin, or a rogue with expertise the Cleric isn't usually called on as the face of the party to make the big rolls.

Then again, you seem like your game involves a lot of unneccesary die rolling, so you might be reacting to that. Funny how you never seem to need athletics though.
 

You need to remember to add extra damage from critical hits, and if you add advantage that doubles your chance to crit and reduces the chance to miss by a lot. Those combined really pushes up your DPR.

You only try to stun once per round. If you hit and stun, you don't need to do so again. If you hit and fail to stun just give up and try again next round. If you miss, then hit, you try to stun. If you miss your first two attacks or fail to stun in your first two attacks don't waste the ki on a flurry and just use your bonus action martial arts attack.

And this is where I believe people get it wrong. They get so focused on trying to get the stun to stick that they blow all of their ki in one round of attacks. Don't do that unless you REALLY need to. You spend 1 ki per round on Stunning Strike. If it doesn't work, don't worry about it and go to the next round. You never spend ki on Flurry of Blows unless they have advantage (the creature is stunned). So half the time you fail to stun and only spend 1 ki. The other half you do stun and you spend 2 ki, 1 for Stunning Strike and 1 for Flurry of Blows. And a little over 12% of the time you miss with your first two attacks and don't spend any ki at all. Don't try to stun with your Martial Arts attack, it is not worth it if you want to maximize your DPR.

The actual calculation is (5.5+3.5+5)x.6 + (11+7+5)x.05 = 9.55 x 3 = 28.65. You have a 60% chance to hit plus a 5% chance to crit.

See, a single stun attempt per round though is going to rely on that 48%, and that is low. So, you would be very unlikely to get a stun at all. This is where I think your math is falling apart compared to everyone else. You are assuming that you get the stun, but with a 60% chance to hit, and a 48% chance of landing the stun, the odds of it landing are very very low.

And without it, you showed around 19 damage. That is where the other side is coming from I think. Taking the more likely scenario that there is no stun.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
See, a single stun attempt per round though is going to rely on that 48%, and that is low. So, you would be very unlikely to get a stun at all. This is where I think your math is falling apart compared to everyone else. You are assuming that you get the stun, but with a 60% chance to hit, and a 48% chance of landing the stun, the odds of it landing are very very low.

And without it, you showed around 19 damage. That is where the other side is coming from I think. Taking the more likely scenario that there is no stun.
The monk has a 65% chance to hit (60% regular hit and 5% critical hit), and with two attacks that raises the chance to hit at least once to 87.75%. The monk's chance to stun vs. a +5 Con save is 50%, so factoring in that he only has an 87.75% chance to hit that lowers the chance of hitting and successfully stunning to 43.875%. Once you have landed a stun your chance of landing at least one hit out of 4, all with advantage, rise to 98.5%. Which raises the chance of a successful stun, if you try only once that round, to 49.25%.

Something to keep in mind with the way odds work. If hit and spend 1 ki to attempt a stun you have a 50% chance. If you fail, then hit again you can spend another 1 ki to get another 50% chance, but for the round you have actually only increased your chance to succeed to 75%, or a gain of 25%. Two 50% chances is = to 75% not 100%. Likewise if you try a third time you increase your odds to 87.5%, or a gain of 12.5%. So every time you spend another ki to stun on the same round you are getting diminishing returns.

Now, of course, the same holds true round over round. Your chance to stun at least once over two rounds, trying only once each round, is 75%. But that would be a different calculation if you wanted to figure out your average damage per combat. DPR is damage per round, so that is what I will stick with.

All of that said I took some shortcuts in my math and I don't think it is quite as accurate as it could be. I honestly don't know if it will change up or down, but I don't think it will change that much. It is a lot of math though, so it might take me a while to come up with the updated numbers.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
As promised I went back and cleared up some mistakes and there is good and bad news. The bad news is that I was hoping to make the monk's ki last a couple more rounds by only doing a flurry on a successful stun, but that does lower the DPR for that round to below the baseline. The good news is if you average it with a full round of attacks against a stunned target it brings the average back up over the baseline. More good news is that if you just use Flurry of Blows every turn and Stunning Fist once per turn, it brings the DPR easily back over the baseline and even higher when averaged with a fully stunned round.

For reference, just using Flurry of blows by itself does 25.6 DPR, but has a 0% chance to stun.

So here's how the math breaks down using my previously proposed method of trying to stun on the fist two attacks and only using Flurry of Blows if a stun sticks.

32.5% chance to hit the first time and stun, then the rest of the attacks with advantage:
9.725+27.68=37.405x.325= 12.156625
32.5% chance to hit the first time, fail to stun, the just attack twice more with Martial Arts:
9.725+12.8=22.525x.325= 7.320625
11.375% chance to miss the first time, then hit the second time and stun, then use Flurry of Blows:
0+9.725+18.45=28.175x.11375= 3.20490625
11.375% chance to miss the first time, then hit the second time and fail to stun, then just make one extra attack with Martial Arts:
0+9.725+6.4=16.125x.11375= 1.83421875
12.25% chance to miss the first two times then just attack once with Martial Arts:
0+0+6.4=6.4x.1225 = 0.784
So on a round the creature does not start stunned the DPR is 25.300375
If the creature starts the round stunned the DPR is 36.91
So if you add them together, divide by two, that's 31.1051875. We'll round to 31.

If you just flurry every round, but still only try to stun once on either the first or second attack, the monk can do this for 6 rounds and here is the breakdown:
32.5% 9.725+27.68=37.405 = 12.156625
32.5% 9.725+19.2=28.925 = 9.400625
11.375% 0+9.725+18.45=28.175 = 3.20490625
11.375% 0+9.725+12.8=22.525 = 2.56221875
12.25% 0+0+12.8=12.8 = 1.568
Total = 28.892375
Averaged with the DPR of a stunned round of 36.91 this comes to 32.9011875, round to 33.
 
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