Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #13: Cleric

Welcome to the 13th Level Up playtest document. This playtest contains a candidate for the first 10 levels of the game’s cleric class. We're nearing the end of this phase of class playtests, with only a couple left to go!

What this is
This is a playtest document. We’d love you to try out the rules presented here, and then answer the follow-up survey in a few days.

What this is not
This is NOT the final game. It’s OK if you don’t like elements of these rules; that’s the purpose of a playtest document. Be sure to participate in the follow-up survey in a few days. All data, positive or negative is useful.

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Level Up Playtest Document #13: Cleric — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)

Welcome to the 13th Level Up playtest document. This playtest contains a candidate for the first 10 levels of the game’s cleric class.

www.levelup5e.com

When you're ready, please fill out the playtest survey here:

Mailchimp Survey

us15.list-manage.com

 

[Staffan]

I don't think 'priest' and 'cleric' have their real world meanings in D&D.

I'm using them as convenient shorthand for "person whose job it is to care for the spiritual well-being of a community and/or preach about the virtues of their religion" and "person who can wield divine magic". The two, while often related, are not synonymous.

 

[Morrus]

I'm using them as convenient shorthand for "person whose job it is to care for the spiritual well-being of a community and/or preach about the virtues of their religion" and "person who can wield divine magic". The two, while often related, are not synonymous.

OK. Your definitions aside, we're just using 'cleric' as class name.

 

[Faolyn]

This is a worthwhile goal. I just don't think the built-in social features of the cleric should be all about the job of being a priest — both because not all clerics are priests, and because not all priests are clerics.

What built-in social features do you think the cleric should have? Because personally, I'm a bit confused. Unless you mean, they should have more Charisma skills? Because (A) most social things are just role-play with the occasional die roll, and (B) we haven't seen much of the social rules for LU yet.

The LU cleric has some social features built in, like the Sacred Call feature, which is all about sermonizing, performing the duties of your priesthood for other people, discussing your god with people... and I think you said you didn't like that because it was too much about being an ordained priest. But if you're not an ordained priest, then what social features should the class grant you?

 

[GKEnialb]

I think you need to work on Devoted Vows a lot more, everything should revolve around your Divine Domain.

I don't agree with this at all (everything revolving around the Domain). One of the best parts of Level Up is the variety - why take away somebody's choice to play a character who takes a vow of celibacy when worshipping a war god? Choosing a vow that doesn't match your domain could actually be an interesting way to add more depth to your character or even flesh out details of your god (asking why would a war god care about chastity is more interesting to me than saying, "war gods only care about war").

Ordination - not all clerics are priests, and not all priests are clerics, but some clerics are priests even if they do not take the acolyte background

I understand that, but it's odd that there would be a direct overlap of the two. I don't think there's another case like that in the rules (e.g., there's no "soldier" ability that's also a "fighter" ability)

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't agree with this at all (everything revolving around the Domain). One of the best parts of Level Up is the variety - why take away somebody's choice to play a character who takes a vow of celibacy when worshipping a war god? Choosing a vow that doesn't match your domain could actually be an interesting way to add more depth to your character or even flesh out details of your god (asking why would a war god care about chastity is more interesting to me than saying, "war gods only care about war").


I understand that, but it's odd that there would be a direct overlap of the two. I don't think there's another case like that in the rules (e.g., there's no "soldier" ability that's also a "fighter" ability)

I agree completely but your war god chastity combo made me think of some hockey traditions so I decided to look them up and surprisingly it dates back up ancient Greecehttps://www.cnn.com/2016/08/08/health/sex-olympics-athletic-performance/index.html

 

[Staffan]

What built-in social features do you think the cleric should have? Because personally, I'm a bit confused. Unless you mean, they should have more Charisma skills? Because (A) most social things are just role-play with the occasional die roll, and (B) we haven't seen much of the social rules for LU yet.

The LU cleric has some social features built in, like the Sacred Call feature, which is all about sermonizing, performing the duties of your priesthood for other people, discussing your god with people... and I think you said you didn't like that because it was too much about being an ordained priest. But if you're not an ordained priest, then what social features should the class grant you?

Don't know. Perhaps things connected to your domain - a War cleric might have an easier time dealing with soldiers and warriors, a Nature cleric getting a bonus with those that live off the land, and so on. Or perhaps the social dimension should be on a separate layer than class.

 

[tetrasodium]

Don't know. Perhaps things connected to your domain - a War cleric might have an easier time dealing with soldiers and warriors, a Nature cleric getting a bonus with those that live off the land, and so on. Or perhaps the social dimension should be on a separate layer than class.

I think that you're maybe getting too specific there wanting specific things for each domain rather than looking for ways to color the looseness built into the abilities you get to absorb & exude that kind of flavor.

From reading your posts it almost seems like your bone to pick is over being allowed to do that rather than having it dictated how its done by raw. If that's the case it sets up a vicious cycle. Using o5e as an example all is well there... if you are playing fr as its written for... and you want to tell the same story as the example it was written for sure, but things break down badly if the gm wants to run with a setting where that baseline is different. edit: Am I correct in that reading?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Part "Chosen", but also part mystic. I'm thinking someone who is attuned to a fundamental force of reality without necessarily having some intermediary deity. I could see someone being devoted to, say, the ideals of freedom, or the pursuit of knowledge, or the mysteries of fire and through those wielding the same kind of power clerics do, but without that power ever getting close to e.g. Avandra, Oghma, or Onatar.

I also want clerics to be able to pursue their own goals while still representing their religions or forces. You should be able to have adventuring clerics who aren't on quests from their gods, but who are simply employing their divine magic while doing adventure stuff. The example that comes to mind is Fzoul Chembryl, as originally portrayed — yes, he was a cleric of Bane, but his job was co-running the Zhentarim (things got a little out of hand later). I could also see a cleric of Waukeen who works as a merchant, or a cleric of Moradin working as a smith, without having any interest in preaching about their particular religions and just serving as examples of a life well lived.

That’s a cool idea, but that doesn’t sound like a DND Klarich to me. A different class though would be good maybe.

 

[Faolyn]

Don't know. Perhaps things connected to your domain - a War cleric might have an easier time dealing with soldiers and warriors, a Nature cleric getting a bonus with those that live off the land, and so on. Or perhaps the social dimension should be on a separate layer than class.

That would be archetype stuff, not class stuff, and I don't think LU is redoing the basic archetypes. While it makes sense that you might have an easier time dealing with people in some way related to your domain, that only makes sense for some domains. Sure, a War cleric might have an easier time dealing with soldiers and warriors. But what about a Tempest cleric? Or a Twilight cleric?

Anyway, "Zeal of the Convert" gives you a bonus whenever you i"nvoke the name of your deity or movement," so that should count.

 

[Staffan]

That’s a cool idea, but that doesn’t sound like a DND Klarich to me. A different class though would be good maybe.

I think it sounds exactly like a D&D cleric. Take Adon from the Avatar trilogy. His job is to be an adventurer. He's part of an adventuring company together with Kelemvor the fighter and Cyric the thief. He's a cleric of Sune, but we don't really see him preaching or anything of the sort.

Or take OG Fzoul Chembryl, who is one of the co-leaders of the Zhentarim. He's not their chaplain, he's their boss. He would of course like to see the faith of Bane flourish within the ranks, but that's definitely not a requirement for membership (and the co-boss, Manshoon, worships Mystra).

Or why not Fall-From-Grace, from Planescape: Torment. She's a Lawful Neutral Succubus cleric who runs the Brothel of Slaking Intellectual Lusts, where the ladies working there primarily engage customers in conversation about themselves. It is unclear whether she even worships a particular god or if she draws power from something else. But she doesn't seem to have any particular network outside of her establishment, and we don't see her preaching about anything.

I think that you're maybe getting too specific there wanting specific things for each domain rather than looking for ways to color the looseness built into the abilities you get to absorb & exude that kind of flavor.

From reading your posts it almost seems like your bone to pick is over being allowed to do that rather than having it dictated how its done by raw. If that's the case it sets up a vicious cycle. Using o5e as an example all is well there... if you are playing fr as its written for... and you want to tell the same story as the example it was written for sure, but things break down badly if the gm wants to run with a setting where that baseline is different. edit: Am I correct in that reading?

I don't think the abilities as written are particularly loose. You're either a preacher who's good at attracting crowds, a ceremonial leader with strong social ties to your order or congregation, or someone who's looking to talk up their god or equivalent at any opportunity. The closest of these to being generic is Zeal of the Convert, which still references "pious" people.

I would want these types of abilitites to be available to any class, not just clerics, because any class should be able to be a religious leader. A priest of Mystra would be just as likely to be a wizard or sorcerer as a cleric.