D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Hussar]

The list of creatures that used to be "monsters" and are now playable PC races includes: bugbear, centaur, firbolg, gith, goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, minotaur, orc, yuan-ti. Probably add in dhampir which seems to effectively be a depowered vampire spawn.

Seems like an indication of direction to me.

What do you mean by "now"?

Those races have been playable in D&D for about 30 years or more. Certainly since 2e and likely in 1e as well. So, this "direction" started and largely stopped 30 years ago without demons and undead becoming standard playable races.

Look, I understand that you feel like you're being attacked here. But, the fact that you continuously ignore what everyone is stating, insist on revising history and keep putting out these bizarre theories that have zero factual basis makes it really, really hard to take you seriously.

 

[Oofta]

At around that age I was learning to play D&D.

Reportedly children (both boys and girls) as young as 8 serving as auxiliary units were captured by American soldiers. War in the real world can be pretty horrible.

 

[Hussar]

I clarified my statement in a follow-up post. The uniform a person wears does not necessarily indicate their moral character. Many soldiers have no choice and are drafted/conscripted. The Nazi army conscripted men from ages 16-60 by the end of the war. Boys aged 12 and under were manning artillery units. I don't believe that they were all evil.

So no, I don't think it's "okay" to say all soldiers forced to fight on the side of an evil regime are evil. War may sometimes be necessary but I don't think it is ever good in the real world.

Note, there is a significant difference between rank and file German soldiers during WWII and Nazis. No one will ever claim that all the rank and file were Nazis. But, those that WERE Nazis, were pretty much as close to evil as the real world gets.

 

[Oofta]

Note, there is a significant difference between rank and file German soldiers during WWII and Nazis. No one will ever claim that all the rank and file were Nazis. But, those that WERE Nazis, were pretty much as close to evil as the real world gets.

I was talking about all of the soldiers in the army which includes the rank and file. Which is what I clarified in my follow-up post. There have been a lot of posts (mostly in other, related threads) that "anyone wearing the uniform of an evil regime are evil" or "all bandits are evil". I disagree with that assumption if we're talking about the real world.

In your campaign if you decide every single individual that wears a particular uniform is evil, it's up to you.

 

[RealAlHazred]

The list of creatures that used to be "monsters" and are now playable PC races includes: bugbear, centaur, firbolg, gith, goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, minotaur, orc, yuan-ti. Probably add in dhampir which seems to effectively be a depowered vampire spawn.

Seems like an indication of direction to me.

I believe one of the first alternate classes developed for original white-box D&D by fans was the "Balrog" race, which showed up in an early Alarums & Excursions. Many others followed, several of which were based on fiction -- IIRC, this included Kzinti and Klingons. Before the Monster Manual (1977) was published. Somewhat after the Monster Manual was published, Len Lakofka developed a class where you played as a pack of blink dogs (White Dwarf #017, Feb/Mar 1980)

If it's a direction, it's one the hobby has been taking for a very long time.

 

[Oofta]

I believe one of the first alternate classes developed for original white-box D&D by fans was the "Balrog" race, which showed up in an early Alarums & Excursions. Many others followed, several of which were based on fiction -- IIRC, this included Kzinti and Klingons. Before the Monster Manual (1977) was published. Somewhat after the Monster Manual was published, Len Lakofka developed a class where you played as a pack of blink dogs (White Dwarf #017, Feb/Mar 1980)

If it's a direction, it's one the hobby has been taking for a very long time.

I don't make any claim to know every supplement ever released. Back in ye' olden days, I never saw them in play even in public games going back to Living City (2E) or Living Greyhawk (3.x).

I have my own preferences for my home game, I'm not debating whether the trend of "monstrous" races can't default to evil is a good thing or not.

 

[RealAlHazred]

I don't make any claim to know every supplement ever released. Back in ye' olden days, I never saw them in play even in public games going back to Living City (2E) or Living Greyhawk (3.x).

I have my own preferences for my home game, I'm not debating whether the trend of "monstrous" races can't default to evil is a good thing or not.

Except for vacations, I've lived my whole life within 50 miles of New York City, and I never saw them played around here. But apparently these sorts of classes were popular on the West Coast, and in some parts of the UK. It's something I find intriguing because I don't know that it ever occurred to my group to allow, say, a Giant Eagle as a PC, and yet there were apparently groups playing at the same time a few hundred miles away that might have had several Giant Eagles in the party. "Because Allah loves wondrous varieties." -- Azeem

 

[Doug McCrae]

OD&D Volume I Men & Magic:

There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided they begin relatively weak and work up to the top, i.e., a player wishing to be a Balrog would have to begin as let us say, a "young" one and progress upwards in the usual manner, steps being predetermined by the campaign referee.​

Holmes Basic Set:

At the Dungeon Master's discretion a character can be anything his or her player wants him to be. Characters must always start out inexperienced and relatively weak and build on their experience. Thus, an expedition might include, in addition to the four basic classes and races (human, elven, dwarven, hobbitish), a centaur, a lawful werebear, and a Japanese Samurai fighting man.​

Mike Mornard played a balrog in Gary Gygax’s Greyhawk campaign.

Jon Peterson, Playing at the World:

In Blackmoor, as it was played in the Twin Cities, most of the Baddies were nominally under the control of players; the orcs in the dungeon beneath Castle Blackmoor, for example, were answerable to Fred Funk (King Fred I of the Orcs) and the Wizard who lurked in its darkest recesses was played by John Soukop.​

The vampire Sir Fang played by Dave Fant is another example from Blackmoor.

Gary Gygax states that drow could be PCs as early as 1979. From the Sorcerer’s Scroll, Dragon #31:

The roles the various drow are designed to play in the series [the D1-3 modules] are commensurate with those of prospective player characters. In fact, the race could be used for player characters, providing that appropriate penalties were levied when a drow or half-drow was in the daylight world.​

 

[S'mon]

I was talking about all of the soldiers in the army which includes the rank and file. Which is what I clarified in my follow-up post. There have been a lot of posts (mostly in other, related threads) that "anyone wearing the uniform of an evil regime are evil" or "all bandits are evil". I disagree with that assumption if we're talking about the real world.

In your campaign if you decide every single individual that wears a particular uniform is evil, it's up to you.

Uniform of Evil Alignment
Wondrous Item, Common
While wearing this uniform you are of Lawful Evil alignment, and may be killed by heroes without moral compunction.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Note, there is a significant difference between rank and file German soldiers during WWII and Nazis. No one will ever claim that all the rank and file were Nazis. But, those that WERE Nazis, were pretty much as close to evil as the real world gets.

There are a bunch of Chinese in a city called Nanjing who would disagree with you.

While yes, when someone says a certain person is a self described nazi in post WWII time frames, we can assume they were a bad person with some high probability, saying everyone who belonged to the nazi party was evil is not an accurate statement. This is especially true for those members who were there before the war actually started.

Note: I want to be very clear I'm not defending nazis here. I tend to take the 1930s captain America approach with them. I just want to stay away from "all of X are evil", because that's how historically justification of genocide has been used. I could better explain with an analogy, but that would cross into political discussion and that's not allowed. I'll just say, "Is it possible, when talking about a group of millions of people, that some of them were not evil?"

On a related note, when I was deployed (and is true of every army all throughout history), when you are going to war, or preparing for war, it is drilled into you how the enemy aren't human. they aren't people. They are all evil. They are all monsters. Xenophobic terms are thrown about with abandon. This is done because when the fighting starts, you can't hesitate to shoot the enemy soldier because if you do, you or your buddies die first. Viewing the enemy soldier as a human being just like you causes hesitation. It was a particular point of inner turmoil within me in my 20s while I was serving, reconciling that training (which I understood why they did it) with my personal outlook on humanity.

Naturally the big drawback to that is that it creates a ton of racism after the war is over, as those feelings carry on. My grandpa hated the "japs" for his entire life, but otherwise you would never think he was racist at all, based on how he was repeated trained and his experience on the island hopping campaign in WWII. My dad hated Vietnamese (which made him racist towards a lot of non-whites (not just Vietnamese) after Vietnam, when by all accounts, he wasn't prior.)