D&D General On Grognardism...

[Ruin Explorer]

But I'd think there was a big danger that's what most of the market would do, if D&D moved away from what made 5e successful. Currently the game is a broad church that attracts players who enjoy a wide range of play styles, including grognardy styles - and it's certainly not just grogs who like such styles. I wouldn't think it makes sense to narrow the market, when they've successfully created a very inclusive game.

Yeah but this is my point. None of what makes 5E successful is the grogpinion stuff. It's stuff that was coincidental to that - accessibility, mechanics like advantage/disadvantage, a wide variety of classes which can be customized quite a bit and have simple and complex versions. It's not things like retaining alignment, or rolling for stats or HP, or martials not having any powers, or the like. Nor is it Vancian casting, I daresay. And a problem 5E has is the lack of a "simple" caster beyond the Warlock, and that's a grog-caused problem I feel.

Listening to grogs who always have a narrower view of "what D&D should be" would inevitably lead to a less-inclusive game. That doesn't mean 6E won't have elements or options grogs might well like - I expect the way healing is done to work a bit better in 6E and to probably include better-integrated "gritty" options - but it does mean that they're merely one small group of players whose opinion should be given a very light weight.

You say "Well some non-grogs like playing groggy ways!", and if that's true, it'll get picked up in WotC's surveys and playtesting and so on. But what they need to avoid doing is primarily directing their surveys and playtesting AT grogs, which is what they did, aggressively, in D&D Next (to the point of actively recruiting OSR people to advise them on Next).

 

[Umbran]

Maybe you missed my point about grogs helping newbs get into the game. A lot of new players are intimidated at the prospect of GMing, especially, when they've not played before.

So, while I think "older gamers" (thinking age 30+) may do a fair share of this, I am not sure how many "grognards" do this. I don't see how folks with the really strong focus on the game 1e and before are doing major work lifting people into 5e.

 

[Minigiant]

One thing I noticed about the difference between grognard and the Gen after is the differences of how the foundation of the game is established.

Grognards tend to be for hard defined bases then get flexor from there.

The Next gen tend to allow much more at the starting point of creating a base but once it's put down, things stiffen to cement.

 

[S'mon]

So, while I think "older gamers" (thinking age 30+) may do a fair share of this, I am not sure how many "grognards" do this. I don't see how folks with the really strong focus on the game 1e and before are doing major work lifting people into 5e.

Yes it is mostly people in their 30s and 40s, I was counting Gen Xers like me as Grognards.

 

[Shiroiken]

I've been playing D&D since 1E, missing only OD&D. I wouldn't say that the game peaked, as there are way better mechanics now. AD&D was a lot of fun, but it was overly complicated. IMO 3E fixed a lot of these issues, but added in a slew of different ones, making it unpalatable for me. 4E fixed some of these issues, adding in a completely different set of problems. 5E fixed these problems, at least within the fundamental rules, allowing me to homebrew the game I want to run.

I've realized my issue is less the mechanics, and more the player base. What I'm looking for in a game, and what I put into it as a DM, is not what a lot of people are interested in. I've come to terms with this, and I suspect that some of those who do feel RPGs peaked "back in the day" need to do the same.

 

[S'mon]

But what they need to avoid doing is primarily directing their surveys and playtesting AT grogs, which is what they did, aggressively, in D&D Next (to the point of actively recruiting OSR people to advise them on Next).

They consulted very widely, including with OSR people, but lots of other people too. And the game is very successful. You think the OSR influence is some kind of taint on 5e?

 

[Umbran]

Yes it is mostly people in their 30s and 40s, I was counting Gen Xers like me as Grognards.

Okay. So, I am not. I am in the 40+ category, but I don't consider myself a grognard. I rather lack the, "grumble about things kids these days are doing," that is pretty central to the root of using the term "grognard" which is a reference to grumbling.

 

[loverdrive]

Another is that the mechanics do not support high fantasy as well as they support other genres.

I reread this sentence a couple of times and I'm still scratching my head.

4E mechanics don't support high fantasy? Like, what? I just don't see how a game about mighty heroes battling forces of planar evil doesn't support high fantasy.

Besides, it's not like pre-3E D&D supports high fantasy that well either. High fantasy heroes don't normally rob graves for gold, as far as I know.

And on the point of changing too much, 4E didn't change more stuff than 3E did. Or AD&D 2E.

4E barely killed any sacred cow — Vancian magic and Saving Throws are the only that come to mind.

 

[S'mon]

Okay. So, I am not. I am in the 40+ category, but I don't consider myself a grognard. I rather lack the, "grumble about things kids these days are doing," that is pretty central to the root of using the term "grognard" which is a reference to grumbling.

Maybe it got mixed up with the "only 10% of players are 40+" thing and the apparent anti-OSR thing - I think the bulk of OSR fans are likely Gen X or thereabouts.

 

[Stormonu]

So, some demographics.

What we call "grognards" are going to be a subset of players age 40 and up. 40+ gamers are about 10% of the current 5e player base. So, the grognards are single-digit percent of the current D&D market, and that number will only be dropping as time goes on - WotC doesn't need to throw them away, when they're just going to pass out of the market of their own accord (as in, die or retire from buying new gaming products). Economically, grogs are already not a major market issue for WotC.

Over 50 and I literally spend over a thousand a year on my gaming hobby and have brought handfuls of players into the game. WotC can ignore me at their peril.