D&D General On Grognardism...

There were a lot less 'world shattering powerful magic spells' and more 'slightly upgraded or degraded fireball'. The powers were very similar between classes, giving everything a generic and non-iconic feel. That makes it hard to have a high fantasy adventure with the feel of Lord of the Rings ... everything felt like a slow moving World of Warcraft.
This is rather misleading, I should point out, and just because something misleading was frequently repeated by people, the majority of whom hadn't played the game, doesn't make it true. I see this all the time in videogames. The idea that the feel was similar to WoW was particularly laughable - I say this as someone who has played various MMOs since 1999. The feel was slightly similar to a video game - Final Fantasy Tactics particularly. That's a very different kind of thing. And claiming "oh it wasn't like LotR" is ludicrous in the context of D&D. It was "hard to have a high fantasy adventure with the feel of Lord of the Rings" in 3.XE, for goodness sake. 4E was actually exceptionally strong for "high fantasy adventures". What it tended not to work as well for was the more survival-oriented low-fantasy stuff.

Further, 4E developed significantly, and whilst there is some truth that the PHB classes did have overly similar powers (not "slightly upgraded or degraded fireball" - that's a bizarre take that suggests a lack of knowledge of 4E - in fact Fireball was remarkably a bad ability in 4E, and not something much resembled), that changed and kept changing. It was a product of 4E being forced out before it was done by WotC leadership, as was discussed a while back. This is why the later books had much better designs. By the time we got to the smaller books, their classes were extremely distinctive.
 

log in or register to remove this ad



MGibster

Legend
This is rather misleading, I should point out, and just because something misleading was frequently repeated by people, the majority of whom hadn't played the game, doesn't make it true. I see this all the time in videogames. The idea that the feel was similar to WoW was particularly laughable - I say this as someone who has played various MMOs since 1999.
The very first time I sat down and played through a combat encounter in D&D 4th edition I thought to myself, "That really reminded me of World of Warcraft." 4th edition had roles that directly corresponded to classes and/or player responsibilities in dungeons and raids in WoW including defenders (tanks), strikers (DPS), controller (crowd control), leaders (buffs), and healers. Whenever I used my attacks/abilities in 4th edition it felt very similar to smashing my 3 button to cast Thunderclap in WoW. 4th edition D&D really made me think of MMORPGs.

Is that necessarily bad? I don't think so. And one thing I really liked about 4th edition is that they made sure every character class had something to contribute during an encounter.
 

MGibster

Legend
To me, OSR-fan does not equal grognard. The most groggiest of grogs I know are not into the OSR. They play the original, as Gygax intended, accepting no substitutes.
Oh, boy. Then you've got orthodox grognards, new reformed grognards, and somehow Methodism. The big schism between orthodox grognards and new reformed grognoards is that they can't agree on how many Gygaxes can dance on the head of a pin.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
One edition isn't better than another edition any more than football is better than basketball...

As a Canadian it's my national duty to point out that hockey is better than both of these, eh. :)

As a contrarian hipster I am honorbound to let you know that lacrosse and rugby 🏉 are actually better than all of the above.

And as a self-avowed dice goblin and gamer-geek, it is my religious duty to let you know that D&D is the best game ever and all other games tie for last place.

And as a 'Murican, I need to remind everyone that baseball season has just started and the Giants beat the Reds today 😎

As a pedant of highest order, I an happy to inform everyone that these are all essentially variations on games of marbles, dating back to 2500 BCE, and thus the true Ur-game.

:p
 


jgsugden

Legend
Actually that stuff was still in. ...
I have 10 years of threads that disagree.
Grognards typically had hard base assumptions for the foundation of the game. Class X can only be Race X. Class Y must be Alignment Y. Race Z can only be Class Z. Race Q is banned. Rules AB and C are in use and enforced. But once you play, you are very free.
Your characterization of the games of grognards is almost entirely opposite of my experience of 40 years of D&D - which has spanned a wide section of DMs, from those over 20 years younger than me, to ones 20 years older. There are some DMs that fit your description, but the majority are creative and open.
New Gen typically is more free in foundational control. Races A-M and/classes N-Z are allowed. Restriction 1-19 are removed.
That does align with the description of a lot of younger DMs - the ones I have played with at least. They are bound by the books and have been hesitant to be creative.
However ifyou play a warlock, your patron will bother you and make demands.
...and this is where our experiences differ. This is one of the key tests I have when talking to a new DM to determine what I want to play in their games. I ask them, "If I played a [XXX] warlock, how much would my patron impact the game?" Then I listen to how they describe the interaction. If they're excited and passionate about it, that is a great game to play a Warlock, Cleric, Paladin, or a PC with strong loyalties to an NPC. These are the DMs that see a warlock as RPG gold and give you a great story in addition to fun combats. These are the games where I dig out the character ideas with a 10 page outline of a backstory that we go over, tweak to fit their game, and then spend 2 years appreciating the narrative that grows from those seeds.

If they show no excitement about it, then I tend to play characters that are mechanically fun, but I don't waste the RPG gold there. I'll build a fun character, and I'll bring personality and drive to the game... but I won't expect the DM to be weaving my character into the story in the same fashion as those excited DMs would.

In my experience, I find more excitement and drive in older DMs than I do in younger DMs. I've met a few young DMs that are trying to emulate Mercer's style, and I always let them know that I highly appreciate what they're trying to do. However, I know a lot more older DMs that are very skilled at this style of game - and most of them are not emulating Mercer - they're practicing the art they've practiced for 30+ years (though I do encourage every DM to spend a little time listening to Critical Role and critically thinking about what Mercer does that works that the DM in question does not do - he is an amazing DM and being able to study his style is a blessing).

Side note: Critical Role has a series called 'Between the Sheets' where the cast give their origin stories and get a little tipsy. Matt Mercer's is interesting for many reasons - and one of those reasons is to hear his story of how he came to D&D and how he thinks about the game and what it can offer. That is highly relevant to this topic. I think every DM out there can get some real benefit from listening to that interview.
However you PC will be weaved into a plot as the games tend to be more narrative. If you pick wizard, you must choose one of the Wizard houses even if you dropped out of Goatboil's School of Magicians. Andthe elves are in civil war, your elf must have an opinion AND it will matter.
This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?
Choo Choo Here Comes the Train! ALL ABOVE THE MAIN PLOT RAILROAD!
If your point was that younger DMs tend to rely more upon the railroad, it is my experience that railroading exists in all generations of players. DMs that are very good at running true sandbox games, like Matt Mercer on Critical Role does, are rare. My own preference is a bookend approach - levels 1 to 4 are generally a railroad that brings the party to the sandbox. Then they play in the sandbox from levels 5 to 16 that lays the foundation as they build up to a railroad finish that ties up all the loose threads to give them that sense of completion when the PCs retire between levels 17 and 20.

Also, I have a series of house rules. The idea of house rules seems to be disparaged quite a bit in this thread. My house rules reintroduce more types of vision into the game (infravision, etc...) They give a benefit to flanking that is less useful than advantage, and strategically reintroduces the idea of lock down maneuvers (without making it overpowered). They give some light mechanics to certain elements of lore from the setting that has existed for 30 years. I have a section describing "THE" textbook on magic and monsters (which essentially has everything in the monster manual, the spells section of the PHB, and the magic item section of the DMG in it).

However, many players in my group never even read those rules and that is perfectly ok as they're all fringe.

However, when they go out into the world, they find monsters that are not in any 5E book, they encounter spells that they've never seen and are excited to learn about, and they never know what to expect. They have to look for context clues to figure out if they're fighting a monstrosity that uses brute force, an aberration with supernatural abilities, or a few creature with trickery and magic. They don't just hear half of the description and say, "Ah, grells. I know how to fight them." I find that players really enjoy the experience of the unknown when it is dynamically introduced. I always evaluate the extent to which it is enjoyed and adjust accordingly in my planning, but adjustments are usually tweaks to avoid approaches that are not as well appreciated (some gamers do not like cute, others do not like scary, others do not like moral ambiguity).

As a player, I always ask a DM about the games they run before I play with them because none of these generalizations are universally true, and each person needs to be evaluated for who they are, not the generation from which they come. I encourage all players to do the same - get to know the DM rather than having a preconceived notion of who they are based upon their age.
 

jgsugden

Legend
This is rather misleading, I should point out, and just because something misleading was frequently repeated by people, the majority of whom hadn't played the game, doesn't make it true. I see this all the time in videogames. The idea that the feel was similar to WoW was particularly laughable - I say this as someone who has played various MMOs since 1999. The feel was slightly similar to a video game - Final Fantasy Tactics particularly. That's a very different kind of thing. And claiming "oh it wasn't like LotR" is ludicrous in the context of D&D. It was "hard to have a high fantasy adventure with the feel of Lord of the Rings" in 3.XE, for goodness sake. 4E was actually exceptionally strong for "high fantasy adventures". What it tended not to work as well for was the more survival-oriented low-fantasy stuff.

Further, 4E developed significantly, and whilst there is some truth that the PHB classes did have overly similar powers (not "slightly upgraded or degraded fireball" - that's a bizarre take that suggests a lack of knowledge of 4E - in fact Fireball was remarkably a bad ability in 4E, and not something much resembled), that changed and kept changing. It was a product of 4E being forced out before it was done by WotC leadership, as was discussed a while back. This is why the later books had much better designs. By the time we got to the smaller books, their classes were extremely distinctive.
Friend - I don't have the time to go through ad recreate the 10 years of commentary on this topic. It stands for itself. My use of fireball was one example of many, intended to reference how so many abilities were incredibly similar ad cookie cutter. I'll let the 10 years of discussion on this topic stand and accept that you disagree.
 

S'mon

Legend
To me, OSR-fan does not equal grognard. The most groggiest of grogs I know are not into the OSR. They play the original, as Gygax intended, accepting no substitutes.

I agree - and groggy grogs don't engage with WoTC surveys, or play 5e. :) But the OP was referring to people WoTC engaged with, so not the hardcore (eg) K&KA crowd or their offline equivalent.
 

Remove ads

Top