D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Manbearcat]

I hope you’re exclusively talking about a specific party makeup, here. Even then...you’d have to assume a lot of stuff for this to be true. Capers to one side, I’ve been playing in and running successful infiltrations for years in D&D, across 4 editions.

I'm less talking about specific party makeup than you are I believe. What I'm talking about is that D&D features an abundance of focused archetypes with niches and in most of the D&D's history (4e D&D omitted), the lack of functional Conflict Resolution mechanics has served to only heighten the lack of breadth that D&D Heroes are capable of.

This is why in 4e, Fail Forward + Success w/ Complications + Skill Challenge Conflict Resolution + the system maths + easy to obtain rerolls/augments for Skill Powers made 4e Heroes hugely broadly competent. The Fighter PCs in my game were fantastic in climbing walls and absolutely capable of rousing speeches to ensure support from a king and they could sneak as well. This is because of the intersection of all of that stuff above.

But if you remove the stuff that made those things work, then you're left with serious niche protection and heroes lacking broad competence.

How do you get around that?

Build a party to a very specific niche (eg all Stealth archetypes - Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Dex Bard) and deploy that "Score (to use Blades parlance) Strategy" repeatedly. Or you could sub Monk and Dex Bard for Dex Barb and Druid and you can reliably defeat Stealth and Wilderness Exploration and Journeys conflicts.

But overwhelmingly...D&D is going to look like A Team w/ a D&Dified version of plan/approach > conflict with the enemy > complications > shootout/explosions > getaway.

Those are part of the D&D 5e rules, and thus can’t just be glossed over when challenging the notion that D&D can satisfying do heists.

See my post directly above. A game needs much more than just Fail Forward and Success w/ Complications to work (hence why I didn't like 13th Age...which, its Fail Forward approach is very similar to what a 5e game would put forth using the Basic PDF). There are multiple integral parts that turn Fail Forward from dysfunctional (no real mechanical cost for failure, impossible to achieve Loss Con and have story loss imposed) to functional (exciting conflicts with broadly competent heroes who absolutely are risking things and can still lose).

The other part of my post that you're quoting was merely the irony of people HATING Fail Forward and Success W/ Complications when it was in 4e but now suddenly reversing field and espousing its virtues? That is some ironicalizationification if I've ever seen it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Letting the GM choose not to use the rules doesn't mean they don't exist though, there is objectively text in the rulebook designed to guide the GM in how to run each of these things. What would be the point to accepting only mandatory rules as 'canonical' beyond it being an avenue to transmute the system into not having that guidance for the sake of your argument?

This isn't the case at all -- the GM is not ignoring any rules on how to bribe a guard: those rules do not exist. Instead, the GM is invited to make this up on their own. You're doing a weird thing with 'canonical' as if your experience is somehow defining. Let's say you have a brand new player who has no experiences running 5e -- what's the answer to the question 'how do you bribe a guard?' 5e provides no answer, just says figure it out GM and tell your players. This whole 'canonical' bit is a red herring.

 

[tetrasodium]

It literally does!

It doesn’t matter that you think it’s okay that it doesn’t, or whatever, you’re wrong about it not doing so.

How do you bribe a guard? You use the skill system, first describing how you approach the task, and depending on that description you either succeed, fail, or make an ability check to determine success or failure, including options for non-binary results. You can also use group checks, multiple checks taken together to determine overall results (this is all a skill challenge actually is. It’s multiple rolls to create a success ladder) and which can be with different stats and skills, or you can even use the framework of downtime activities. The game provides multiple options under a pretty clear (though sometimes poorly organized and explained) framework to resolve any task, rather than trying to make a specific rule for every possible task.

The point you either keep missing or keep ignoring is the second part of the statement. The statement is, “D&D provides a framework for adjudicating tasks, and then gets out of the way to let consequences speak for themselves, or allow the DM to employ optional or homebrewed rules if desired.”

That is not a lack, or an oversight, or a failure to model anything, it is an active decision to leave room rather than making everything under the sun require the group to reference the rules. Having the tools to figure out how to adjudicate and balance whatever you want to add to the game makes it easier to add things to the game. Not by accident or incidentally, but by design. It is a feature.

d&d provides a framework for initiating tasks that is then tossed to the gm to decide. Since we are talking about "how to bribe a guard" compare fate core page 122-123 (resources)

Spoiler: the section

Resources
Resources describes your character’s general level of material wealth in the
game world and ability to apply it. This might not always reflect cash on
hand, given the different ways you can represent wealth in a particular set-
ting—in a medieval game, it might be tied to land or vassals as much as
gold; in the modern day, it might mean a number of good lines of credit.
This skill is in the default list to give you a basic, easy way to handle
wealth as an abstraction without getting into minutiae or bookkeeping.
Some people might consider it odd to give a static skill rating for something
that we’re used to seeing as a finite resource. If that bothers you, see the
sidebar on page 123 for ways to limit Resources.
o Overcome: You can use Resources to get yourself out of or past

any situation where throwing money at the problem will help,
such as committing bribery or acquiring rare and expensive things.
Challenges or contests might involve auctions or bidding wars.
c Create an Advantage: You might use Resources to grease the

wheels and make people more friendly, whether that represents an
actual bribe (I Scratch Your Back...) or simply buying drinks for
people (In Vino Veritas). You can also use Resources to declare
that you have something you need on hand, or can quickly acquire
it, which could give you an aspect representing the object.
a Attack: Resources isn’t used for attacks.
d Defend: Resources isn’t used to defend.
Resources
Resources describes your character’s general level of material wealth in the
game world and ability to apply it. This might not always reflect cash on
hand, given the different ways you can represent wealth in a particular set-
ting—in a medieval game, it might be tied to land or vassals as much as
gold; in the modern day, it might mean a number of good lines of credit.
This skill is in the default list to give you a basic, easy way to handle
wealth as an abstraction without getting into minutiae or bookkeeping.
Some people might consider it odd to give a static skill rating for something
that we’re used to seeing as a finite resource. If that bothers you, see the
sidebar on page 123 for ways to limit Resources.
o Overcome: You can use Resources to get yourself out of or past

any situation where throwing money at the problem will help,
such as committing bribery or acquiring rare and expensive things.
Challenges or contests might involve auctions or bidding wars.
c Create an Advantage: You might use Resources to grease the

wheels and make people more friendly, whether that represents an
actual bribe (I Scratch Your Back...) or simply buying drinks for
people (In Vino Veritas). You can also use Resources to declare
that you have something you need on hand, or can quickly acquire
it, which could give you an aspect representing the object.
a Attack: Resources isn’t used for attacks.
d Defend: Resources isn’t used to defend.

There is even at least one version of fate with a built in or optional resources stress track. The resources skill starts out similar to some of the persuade skill checks & such mentioned, where it differs in the next step. Applying an aspect like I scratch your back or in vino veritas as described has specific mechanical effects & with the ladder ranging from +8 legendary to -2 terrible it even provides an estimate of how difficult a particular aspect might be to apply. If you take this a step further you can even continue on to social combat where you have a specific codified set of mechanics not reliant on "ask your gm".

 

[billd91]

If a 5e table is adopting the Fail Forward option (that is exclusively in the Basic PDF and not in the live text) and/or the Success w/ Complications module, yes, that fundamentally changes the nature of play.

I mean you and I (and others) had tons of conversations about 4e's use of Fail Forward and Success w/ Complications in Skill Challenges (and how certain folks...pretty sure you were included in that...thought that all sucked). So this area has been covered ad nauseum.

Folks who are using the indie resolution tools provided in the 5e Basic PDF (Fail Forward) and in the live game (Success w/ Complications) are going to have a dynamically different experience than those using binary pass/fail (you're sneaky/you're discovered). That shouldn't be controversial at all.

Now, if we're saying in 2021 that this stuff suddenly doesn't suck (like it sucked in 4e) and that we're going to go ahead and use it in 5e...the distinguishing questions between 5e and Blades would be:

• What are the pressure points to inflict complications with teeth in 5e vs Blades?
• Procedurally and principally, how do GM's inflict complications (breadth and potency) in 5e vs Blades?
• Can players marshal resources to outright resist complications in 5e or Blades?
• How do/can players marshal resources to overcome complications in 5e vs Blades?
• How do the two systems deal with Win/Loss Cons for overcoming "intra-heist" obstacles?

I'm pretty sure you're not even addressing my point. Why would a heist in 5e be done and failed (wilting Pac-Man noises) just because a task, even a binary pass/fail one like checking stealth vs perception, fails (or, hell, in 1e/2e or 3e, Traveller, Mutants and Masterminds, Top Secret, etc etc)? And the simple answer is, it's not. It's a complication - a guard alerted by a sound and whole bunch of different outcomes can be sparked by it depending on the decisions made by the DM and players at that time and the resources they have with them and choose to use.

And yeah, that may play out a bit differently from BitD since most older gen-based RPGs are front-load heavy when it comes to planning and gathering resources. But over in a single check? No.

 

[Imaro]

I fully understand the good enough for government sentiment, but we have seen hashed out over this thread for last 3-4 pages is not a good enough for government work argument. We have seen people argue that D&D is in fact better at the things other games use as their selling points. That it is just good or better at what other games set out to do. I just do not get why there is so much resistance to the conceit that different games do different things well and should be valued for it even if those games are not to our individual tastes.

Where? Please show an example of this because I have totally missed it if true. Right now the argument seems to be arguing against a claim that D&D 5e doesn't actually have tools for resolving actions... that seems like its a far cry from claiming it does things better than any game.

 

[Ovinomancer]

In fact, money where my mouth, is, and just to make it harder, I'll use 5e exclusively:​

Persuasion:​

When you attempt to influence someone or a group of people with tact, social graces, or good nature, the DM might ask you to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check. Typically, you use persuasion when acting in good faith, to foster friendships, make cordial requests, or exhibit proper etiquette. Examples of persuading others include convincing a chamberlain to let your party see the king, negotiating peace between warring tribes, or inspiring a crowd of townsfolk.

Deception:​

Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone's suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie.


Social Interaction:
In addition to roleplaying, ability checks are key in determining the outcome of an interaction.

Your roleplaying efforts can alter an NPC’s attitude, but there might still be an element of chance in the situation. For example, your DM can call for a Charisma check at any point during an interaction if he or she wants the dice to play a role in determining an NPC’s reactions. Other checks might be appropriate in certain situations, at your DM’s discretion.

Pay attention to your skill proficiencies when thinking of how you want to interact with an NPC, and stack the deck in your favor by using an approach that relies on your best bonuses and skills. If the group needs to trick a guard into letting them into a castle, the rogue who is proficient in Deception is the best bet to lead the discussion. When negotiating for a hostage’s release, the cleric with Persuasion should do most of the talking.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You need to gather information? You would just use these rules to chat up someone who would have the information you need-- or perception if you want to go stake the place out, or whatever. The game also has rules for how the DM 'should' set the DC.

Moving off 5e... Gather Information - Actions - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database other 'DND games' give even more to work off of.

​

Right, I say the only rule is "ask your GM how it works" and you quote me rules that say "ask your GM how it works." I mean, was your point to refute something I've said, here?

 

[Imaro]

Right, I say the only rule is "ask your GM how it works" and you quote me rules that say "ask your GM how it works." I mean, was your point to refute something I've said, here?

Is that what they say??

 

[MichaelSomething]

I'm tired of reading about if D&D does heists or not! Can we switch it up to argue if D&D can do Thirsty Sword Lesbians for a change of pace??

I say no! If D&D really could do Thirsty Sword Lesbians, we be seeing this stuff on the DM's Guild instead of it's own RPG!!

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Right, I say the only rule is "ask your GM how it works" and you quote me rules that say "ask your GM how it works." I mean, was your point to refute something I've said, here?

But it isn't just 'ask your GM how it works,' its 'it works like this, at the GM's discretion' the first part doesn't disappear just because the GM has permission to go off script. The rules (and the advice for actually adjudicating these in the DMG that isn't in the Basic Rules) are there they absolutely exist, by default, you make the ability check in that situation-- your GM calls for it because you may or may not need one depending on the situation.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I'm tired of reading about if D&D does heists or not! Can we switch it up to argue if D&D can do Thirsty Sword Lesbians for a change of pace??

I say no! If D&D really could do Thirsty Sword Lesbians, we be seeing this stuff on the DM's Guild instead of it's own RPG!!

I can say from experience that DND can absolutely do Thirsty Sword Lesbians, but would contest that Pathfinder 2e does it better, I have a player who was very thirsty, used a sword, and was a lesbian, in Pathfinder, perfectly successfully, TYVM