D&D General Decoupling Ability Scores from Offense

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think this would work better if there were useful, player-driven ways to use skills in combat for each ability score. As of right now it's really just Athletics and sometimes Stealth (environment permitting).

Note that, IIRC, the only printed rule for feinting in combat is a Battlemaster maneuver.

I think the special action features from the UA Skill for Feats would be awesome to add to the ''Using Ability Score'' section of the PHB.

Ex:
Persuasion
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one attack with an attempt to deceive one humanoid you can see within 30 feet of you that can see and hear you. Make a Charisma (Deception) check contested by the target's Wisdom (Insight) check. If your check succeeds, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from the target and your attack rolls against it have advantage; both benefits last until the end of your next turn or until you use this ability on a different target. If your check fails, the target can't be deceived by you in this way for 1 hour.

Sleight of Hands
As a bonus action, you can make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to plant something on someone else, conceal an object on a creature, lift a purse, or take something from a pocket.

Arcana
If the character perceived the casting, the spell's effect, or both, the character can make an Intelligence (Arcana) check with the reaction or action. The DC equals 15 + the spell's level. If the spell is cast as a class spell and the character is a member of that class, the check is made with advantage. For example, if the spellcaster casts a spell as a cleric, another cleric has advantage on the check to identify the spell. Some spells aren't associated with any class when they're cast, such as when a monster uses its Innate Spellcasting trait.

+ special actions from the DMG

 

[Oofta]

Sure, but the idea isn't only to prevent accidental bad builds. It's also to empower deliberate playing against type (I want to play a fighter who's good at History instead of Athletics), and/or to allow more freedom if random or procedural generation of stats is used.

I think seeing a Str 10 Int 16 fighter as good at combat as a Str 16 Int 10 fighter is either something that makes you say "Yes, I like that" or "No, that's wrong", and there's not really a lot of wiggle room. It's an aesthetic preference.

Then play against type. Create a strength based intelligent rogue or a dexterity based paladin. Make a cleric that's charismatic but not quite as wise as some of their brethren. But they were unique and different because they weren't combat optimized builds. It's perfectly fine to do all of those things and I have. They've all been fun to play and with 5E's structure it's not that much of a detriment.

If there is no assumption that rogues will have a high dex, you can't play against the assumed build. If everybody is special, no one is. The OP's solution robs Peter (people who enjoy making builds whether optimized or not) to pay Paul (the people who apparently don't read the guidelines in the PHB).

 

[Steampunkette]

I think the special action features from the UA Skill for Feats would be awesome to add to the ''Using Ability Score'' section of the PHB.

Ex:
Persuasion
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one attack with an attempt to deceive one humanoid you can see within 30 feet of you that can see and hear you. Make a Charisma (Deception) check contested by the target's Wisdom (Insight) check. If your check succeeds, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from the target and your attack rolls against it have advantage; both benefits last until the end of your next turn or until you use this ability on a different target. If your check fails, the target can't be deceived by you in this way for 1 hour.

Sleight of Hands
As a bonus action, you can make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to plant something on someone else, conceal an object on a creature, lift a purse, or take something from a pocket.

Arcana
If the character perceived the casting, the spell's effect, or both, the character can make an Intelligence (Arcana) check with the reaction or action. The DC equals 15 + the spell's level. If the spell is cast as a class spell and the character is a member of that class, the check is made with advantage. For example, if the spellcaster casts a spell as a cleric, another cleric has advantage on the check to identify the spell. Some spells aren't associated with any class when they're cast, such as when a monster uses its Innate Spellcasting trait.

+ special actions from the DMG

Love these.

Especially if we make Offhand Attacks a bonus attack during the Attack Action rather than a separate bonus action attack.

Then Rogues could Feint in combat to get advantage and sneak attack and still have their bonus action to dash.

 

[Quartz]

I think seeing a Str 10 Int 16 fighter as good at combat as a Str 16 Int 10 fighter

Isn't that - sort of - the Battlemaster? Or you could create a Fighter-only fighting style to cover that:

Experienced fighting: you may use the lower of your Proficiency Bonus or your levels in the Fighter class instead of your stat bonus when calculating 'to hit' rolls.

Math: hit roll = d20 + PB + MIN (PB, Fighter levels)

 

[TwoSix]

If there is no assumption that rogues will have a high dex, you can't play against the assumed build. If everybody is special, no one is. The OP's solution robs Peter (people who enjoy making builds whether optimized or not) to pay Paul (the people who apparently don't read the guidelines in the PHB).

Believe me, as an optimizer, I love the thought of being able to make builds that aren't bound by stat requirements.

I'd point out that I, personally, am not advocating for a full break from stat-to-class connection, it's not like Charisma bonus to saves is going away for paladins, or level+mod number of spells for prepared casters. Separating stat mod from offense simply makes it so that boosting your primary stat isn't optimal compared to taking feats.

To my mind, allowing characters to be built to fit player vision is a much higher play priority than privileging existing tropes (for a normal D&D 5e game); I'm aware that not everyone agrees with those play priorities.

 

[TwoSix]

Isn't that - sort of - the Battlemaster? Or you could create a Fighter-only fighting style to cover that:

Experienced fighting: you may use the lower of your Proficiency Bonus or your levels in the Fighter class instead of your stat bonus when calculating 'to hit' rolls.

Math: hit roll = d20 + PB + MIN (PB, Fighter levels)

Sure, but why not make it a global rule rather than fighter only? I like to support charisma based experts and dexterous spellcasters too.

My house rule is simply this: For all attack rolls and for spell save DC calculations, you may use your proficiency bonus in place of the corresponding stat modifier if the proficiency bonus is higher.

 

[Quartz]

My house rule is simply this: For all attack rolls and for spell save DC calculations, you may use your proficiency bonus in place of the corresponding stat modifier if the proficiency bonus is higher.

That's too good IMHO. And it begs the question: why have stats in the first place?

 

[Quartz]

Just to elaborate: going your way, you could define all d20 rolls by d20 + PB when you're not proficient, d20 + PB + PB when you're proficient, and d20 + PB + PB + PB when you're an expert. That's an abstraction too far for me.

 

[TwoSix]

Just to elaborate: going your way, you could define all d20 rolls by d20 + PB when you're not proficient, d20 + PB + PB when you're proficient, and d20 + PB + PB + PB when you're an expert. That's an abstraction too far for me.

Doesn't apply to skill checks, so expertise isn't in play. Attack rolls (and spell save DCs) only.

 

[TwoSix]

That's too good IMHO. And it begs the question: why have stats in the first place?

If you can show me an example of "broken" (as opposed to just stronger than PHB baseline, which is NOT a good definition of broken), then we can have a discussion.

As to why stats: skills, saves, and helps define the characters' overall approach. Having high Int and low Dex is a good shorthand for a certain subset of character tropes, much like alignment is. Since I'm using this rule in my sidekick classes only game, having the extra definition is helpful.