WotC 2020 Was The Best Year Ever For Dungeons & Dragons

[Steampunkette]

Yes, it is a great thing. Because it means the game is growing and the hobby is getting a lot more people in it, including this next generation. I think we all (grogs like myself included) agree on.

Thinking it's a great thing because grognards are becoming more of a minority? Seems a weird thing to celebrate when there are plenty of good reasons to celebrate that figure that isn't denigrating another group of people.

It would be best if you didn't assume my intentions were malicious, Sacrosanct. In general that's a good assumption for most people, except for earnestly crappy ones.

Though now I -am- curious why you think becoming a minority is denigrating by its very nature?

That said:. I do think it's great that the young now outnumber us older players. It means the hobby is not only thriving in a general sense, but is a massive hit with the younger generations (Younger Millennials, Gen Z, and so forth) and will keep going when we're gone. Do you remember when WotC bought out TSR back in '97 and it was a big deal? It was because the grognards of that time (many, but not all, of whom are still around) were the primary players of D&D. It was a big deal that the game didn't really appeal to the younger generations.

And then 3e hit. And MAN was it a hit. Younger people were picking up the game like no one's business back in 2000. I sure as shooting did when I was 20 years younger than I am, now!

But the older players still way outnumbered the younger ones. The game was doing better than it had in a decade or more, but it could've been soooo much better.

I think this is the first time since WotC bought D&D that over 50% of the playerbase was under 30! That's AMAZING. That's GREAT.

And I will happily advance into the minority if it means there's a lot more kids picking up the game we love and sharing it like we did. More kids than ever have.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It would be best if you didn't assume my intentions were malicious, Sacrosanct. In general that's a good assumption for most people, except for earnestly crappy ones.

Though now I -am- curious why you think becoming a minority is denigrating by its very nature?

It's a pretty common reaction for someone to make when you're celebrating one group of people becoming a smaller minority. One that apparently one other person made as well.

Replace a word with another group:

"More men are joining the hobby! Women are getting more and more outnumbered! "

And you're honestly asking why someone, like a woman, might feel like your intentions weren't all that great when you're celebrating that?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Lest we forget, WotC released Dungeon of the Mad Mage and Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica on the same day. They can release unrelated books on the same day if they feel like it.

That was unplanned, though. It was supposed to be released earlier, closer to the release of Dragon Heist.

 

[Steampunkette]

There are more players in just the 35–39 age range than in the entire 40+ range!

Does that seem odd to anyone else? What exactly happens to people when they turn 40 that causes such a steep dropoff?

Part of that is what Marc says, here:

The 40+ range is the segment of players who are more likely to still play older editions (3e, 2e, 1e, Basic and Original D&D).

There's 3 other big parts to it, though:

1) D&D has only been around since 1975, or around 46 years. And in the 70s, most people who picked up the game were in their 20s or younger. Same thing for the 80s. And while it was a pretty good game for 30-something wargamers like Gygax and Arnesen, it was mostly the next generation that got into it. 10-20 being the primary purchasers. In the 80s the average player age started climbing because Satanic Panic kept the youth from being able to buy the game.

2) People change. People grow out of things they liked in their youth. Sometimes because it was only fun when they could stay up late pounding cheetos and mountain dew. Huge quantities of older players just stopped playing Tabletop games because they suddenly had jobs, kids, mortgages, spouses... Other things that consumed large portions of their time and didn't leave a lot of room for D&D.

3) People die. Really -really- sad fact, a lot of the older gamers have died just due to age, due to the AIDS epidemic, due to Coronavirus, due to various other issues. But it's been almost 50 years and the average human lifespan is still in the 77 year range.

 

[Steampunkette]

It's a pretty common reaction for someone to make when you're celebrating one group of people becoming a smaller minority. One that apparently one other person made as well.

Replace a word with another group:

"More men are joining the hobby! Women are getting more and more outnumbered! "

And you're honestly asking why someone, like a woman, might feel like your intentions weren't all that great when you're celebrating that?

Without getting -too- heavily into politics...

You're comparing Apples to Atomic Bombs, there, Sacrosanct.

"Older Players" getting outnumbered is -way- different than "Women" just due to the whole...y'know... how society has treated women since forever.

Comparing grognards to any group that has been actually and actively marginalized on the basis of sex, race, sexuality, or religion is going to go over like a lead balloon at best.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Without getting -too- heavily into politics...

You're comparing Apples to Atomic Bombs, there, Sacrosanct.

"Older Players" getting outnumbered is -way- different than "Women" just due to the whole...y'know... how society has treated women since forever.

Comparing grognards to any group that has been actually and actively marginalized on the basis of sex, race, sexuality, or religion is going to go over like a lead balloon at best.

You missed the point. The point wasn't to compare grognards with women in the context of who has been more marginalized. The point was to illustrate how celebrating a group of people (any group) being less and less involved as a good thing would probably not sit all that well with said group, and thus it shouldn't be a big surprise to get the reaction you did. Since I wasn't the only one who picked up on it, maybe you can just own it instead of deflecting? And in case you weren't aware, ageism is also a very real thing, and it's not OK either.

 

[Steampunkette]

You missed the point. The point wasn't to compare grognards with women in the context of who has been more marginalized. The point was to illustrate how celebrating a group of people (any group) being less and less involved as a good thing would probably not sit all that well with said group, and thus it shouldn't be a big surprise to get the reaction you did. Since I wasn't the only one who picked up on it, maybe you can just own it instead of deflecting? And in case you weren't aware, ageism is also a very real thing, and it's not OK either.

"Less Involved"

Nope. Outnumbered. Specific term. As in "More of one group than another"

And I "Owned" the fact that my statement came across as an insult. Right here:

Grognard comes from a French term for "Old Soldier". Old Soldiers in the ttrpg community largely referring to the older players of previous editions.

I've heard the phrase since I was about 16 years old. And it has always been a term of endearment, to my ears. It's how I intended it. That's why I put in the little heart.

I apologize that it came across as an insult. It wasn't my intention, but it was the result.

(I'm also among the old soldiers compared to that 54%, by the by)

I'm not going to apologize to you, specifically, 'cause you were also insulted by my miscommunication. I've apologized and owned it.

I am, however, going to call you out for trying use the real world marginalization of a group of people as cudgel to try and cow me into backing off.

Screw that. And screw your new line on Ageism as well. It's the same cudgel and I won't stand for it.

"Missed the point" my left nostril. The point was to try and compare grognards being outnumbered by new players to real world harm. To try and ignore any sense of nuance or scale in order to support the idea that any group being a minority is inherently bad.

 

[Marc_C]

2) People change. People grow out of things they liked in their youth. Sometimes because it was only fun when they could stay up late pounding cheetos and mountain dew. Huge quantities of older players just stopped playing Tabletop games because they suddenly had jobs, kids, mortgages, spouses... Other things that consumed large portions of their time and didn't leave a lot of room for D&D.

From what I have seen people stop playing around 25 when they have kids. Some start again about 12 years later when the kids are old enough to be 'captive players' . Usually they play the edition they are familiar with, which is not the current edition.

 

[Marc_C]

3) People die. Really -really- sad fact, a lot of the older gamers have died just due to age, due to the AIDS epidemic, due to Coronavirus, due to various other issues. But it's been almost 50 years and the average human lifespan is still in the 77 year range.

On older forums like Dragonsfoot, some accounts go quiet. Sometimes we learn they have passed. Don't forget smoking in the list of culprits killing off D&D players. I was lucky to play in a non-smoker group from the get go but we worked decades in smoking work environments, smoking was allowed inside the schools in corridors.

 

[Steampunkette]

From what I have seen people stop playing around 25 when they have kids. Some start again about 12 years later when the kids are old enough to be 'captive players' . Usually they play the edition they are familiar with, which is not the current edition.

This is also true!

So all those 3e D&D players who started between 10 and 16 are now between 31 and 37!

Which is -right- at that "Mid 20s average +12" you're talking about, there!

On older forums like Dragonsfoot, some accounts go quiet. Sometimes we learn they have passed. Don't forget smoking in the list of culprits killing off D&D players. I was lucky to play in a non-smoker group from the get go but we worked decades in smoking work environments, smoking was allowed inside the schools in corridors.

Really sad, yeah. And you're right about smoking and other drugs.