D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Aldarc]

I was thinking about this thread and I wondered about this part. This is probably the most plausible reason why Madness is not treated at all in the book. Given WotC's dedication to addressing problematic elements in the genre, it would make perfect sense not to include a sanity score.

Yeah, it doesn't particularly matter what WotC thinks about the quality of their Sanity and/or Madness rules are. What matters is that they likely moved away from them for this reason.

All these problems go away if you use xp...just sayin'...

I'm a gamemaster not a payroll accountant!

 

[MichaelSomething]

Does D&D do sanity and madness well? Hard to say.
But I bet D&D can totally do a 9 foot tall vampire lady! That's where the money's at!!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Remember that Умер Мужик game I was talking about earlier? Turns out, it was translated to English, so you westerners can read it (and play it!) without me doing a naughty word job at explaining things.

Thank goodness, reading it in Russian would worth at least 1d10 SAN loss

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I was thinking about this thread and I wondered about this part. This is probably the most plausible reason why Madness is not treated at all in the book. Given WotC's dedication to addressing problematic elements in the genre, it would make perfect sense not to include a sanity score.

Well, yeah, it certainly can be seen as stigmatization. I would say that the term 'sanity' is perhaps NOT the best name for it to begin with, though. I mean, it has the virtue of being very clear to the players in terms of signalling what is expected in an RP sense. OTOH it certainly is a gross simplification of a whole set of issues that many of WotC's customers and fellow gamers surely wrestle with. I'm not entirely sure what would be the best way to make it work with that in mind. Surely the 'counting up cumulative mental/spiritual/emotional fatigue/stress' has some merit. Its hard to know how to give it teeth. Even CoC is rather vague on that point, beyond the "you are momentarily stunned by SAN loss" mechanic. Everything past that point is 'Keepers Pleasure' basically, or up to RP by the player as they see fit. What does BitD do to a PC who stresses out?

 

[Manbearcat]

What does BitD do to a PC who stresses out?

You're out of the scene (which can spiral because any individual PC is a big asset). You miss out on Downtime Activities, but you start the next loop of playing with 0 Stress having Indulged your Vice

You gain a Trauma (like Cold or Haunted). This is a new xp trigger that get (carrot) but 4 of these and your PC is toast (stick) but dead/retired/prison is the player's call.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sounds fairly similar to what Cortex does in games where a mental stress track is used.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I've got to tell you man, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming its not deliberate, when used that broadly it comes across as pretty strongly judgmental and dismissive. Power gamer is not such a neutral term you don't want to handle it with some care.

I think it's a pretty neutral term but to be fair, I've never met anyone remotely as indecisive as you're apparently portraying the vast majority of people you game with are, or who would even think that sort of behaviour was acceptable in themselves, so I accept there may be some pretty huge cultural differences here. I mean, honestly, what you're describing appals me - two hours to pick dinner? Two weeks to pick a feat? If someone described me that way I'd feel pretty burned. Whereas someone calls me a power gamer? Who cares. I know if I am better than them, and I wouldn't consider it an insult anyway. Call me a munchkin, which I have never in my life been, and then we're talking insults. But you're saying for people you know, it's flipped, and like power gamer is extremely insulting, and yet "takes two weeks to pick a feat" is totally cool. I am I admit unable to even picture someone who would take even a few days to pick a feat who wouldn't meet my definition of "power gamer" (which is to say someone who invests significant effort in ensuring their character is mechanically effective, not just cool or fun-seeming or whatever).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think it's a pretty neutral term but to be fair, I've never met anyone remotely as indecisive as apparently the vast majority of people you game with are, or who would even think that sort of behaviour was acceptable in themselves, so I accept there may be some cultural differences here. I mean, honestly, what you're describing appals me - two hours to pick dinner? Two weeks to pick a feat? If someone described me that way I'd feel pretty burned.

I've watched power-gamer be used as an epithet for literally decades (usually in constrast with "roleplayer", like its not possible to be both at the same time). I'm really startled to see you see it as neutral.

As to the indecisiveness--that is what it is, and most of the people involved wouldn't consider it a virtue either (I certainly don't, and I'm neither the best nor worst when it comes to it), but its still a thing. A lot of them will make decisions faster in other contexts (the dinner thing is one of my own tics, which is why I usually try to plan them out in advance since I cook most of the time), but things like feat choice you can be saddled with for a while (though, as I said, its not as bad as it used to be).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I've watched power-gamer be used as an epithet for literally decades (usually in constrast with "roleplayer", like its not possible to be both at the same time). I'm really startled to see you see it as neutral.

Whaaaaaaaa?

You can be both? Why the heck couldn't you be? That's crazy.

I've been playing RPGs not as long as you, for sure, but since 1989, and been talking about them on the internet since 1992-ish (Shadowland.org being where I got started), and all the classic stuff painted power gamers pretty positively, and in contrast the purely negative munchkin. The power gamers at your table can be managed, directed, and a force for good. Whereas a munchkin will just wreck your game. Most of the sites I've posted on about RPGs it hasn't been an insult, and certainly hasn't been exclusive with role-playing.

Plus, let's be real, I am a power-gamer. I always design my characters to be as mechanically effective as possible. Not to be spotlight-stealing, or making things boring - I often pick support or indirect roles, or ones other people aren't covering, but I sure as hell make sure my PC is as good as they possibly can be w/o losing the concept (and you rarely lose the concept). But I'm also a role-player, as a player or a DM. The idea that there's a contradiction seems like utter madness to me.

As an aside, epithet is also a neutral word - it merely means a word that describes a quality someone possesses. So "power-gamer" is used as an epithet, absolutely, but so is "role-player" or "god-tier" regarding how good a DM is or the like.

 

[Thomas Shey]

As an aside, epithet is also a neutral word - it merely means a word that describes a quality someone possesses. So "power-gamer" is used as an epithet, absolutely, but so is "role-player" or "god-tier" regarding how good a DM is or the like.

That's one use of it, but I'd take a look at the second listing under Merriam-Webster before you assume its the only one.

As to the negative use of power-gamer--that goes all the way back to Glenn Blacow who originally popularized it; while he avowedly wanted to just use it to contrast with the other three styles he was presenting, it was abundantly clear he considered it a negative and that propagated outward. It was usually treated as a near synonym with "munchkin" (though the latter had connotations of lack of skill and/or cheating that the former didn't).