D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Hussar]

On the sidebar- I’ve never seen powergamer used in anything other than a negative context. And typically synonymous with munchkin.

It’s not like it’s rare.

 

[dave2008]

Turning the dial to 11 must have some different meaning for you than for me -- this is absolute maximum volume*. If "no win" is higher than what you're calling dial to 11, then you aren't at 11 yet.

I mean it is a Spinal Tap reference, it was supposed to be humorous, not literal,

But, interesting. You're saying that in your Cthulhu game the party had a chance to defeat Cthulhu in combat?

They had no chance to kill Cthulhu, but it could have been defeated. However, what I was referring to was the ordinary fights became deadly: cultist, deep ones, and an aberration.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Well, that's entirely possible, but at least the use of power gamer as a derogatory was far from dead in the 90's.

Yeah, sorry if I overstated, I'm not saying it was never used in a derogatory way in the 1990s, it was. Sometimes as you say, it was used as a synonym for munchkin (usually by older people, now that I think about it - of course "older people" was "over 25" back then lol), or just in an insulting way, but so were a lot of terms. There was huge sneering at the cooperative storytelling stuff emerging in games (very different to Blacow's definition) too in the earlier 1990s, with a lot of people basically implying that unless you had a DM solidly in charge of everything happening in the game, it was terrible (you still see ghosts of that from time to time even now). But it transformed in usage over the 1990s, for sure, and by the 2000s definitely wasn't an insult for many people. Nor is min-maxer or optimizer, though there are people who freak out when those terms are mentioned. Usually, in my experience, because they're total min-maxers, and that doesn't fit with their self-image as "real roleplayers" or the like, something I've never fully understood.

I repeat; a cure worse than the disease. Decision paralysis is a problem, but that's not a good reason to largely eliminate any options other than the large blunt object of a fixed character class.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like something you can cure "supply side". I do think it's worth eliminating some of the pointless plethora of options in certain games. 3E and 4E could both have lost 70-80% of their Feats (across all books/supplements - a much smaller proportion in core books) and nothing of value would have been lost (same with 3E PrCs). But those were mostly bad and not likely to be causing analysis paralysis. To cure that I think requires a different mind-set and self-work, a willingness to do things like break down a problem and apply spreadsheets and pro/con lists and so on (I have helped people with it before, though not as related to TT RPGs). It also requires the person to want to overcome it. I know a couple of terminal ditherers (not in my main RPG group though), and both of them actually, on some level, enjoy dithering and debating and considering and re-considering, so they may moan about how long it takes them to decide things, but they never make any efforts to speed up or sharpen their decision-making process. I don't fault 'em, they both like what they like, but I do feel like the "I'm such a ditherer!" is almost a boast sometimes lol.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, sorry if I overstated, I'm not saying it was never used in a derogatory way in the 1990s, it was. Sometimes as you say, it was used as a synonym for munchkin (usually by older people, now that I think about it - of course "older people" was "over 25" back then lol), or just in an insulting way, but so were a lot of terms. There was huge sneering at the cooperative storytelling stuff emerging in games (very different to Blacow's definition) too in the earlier 1990s, with a lot of people basically implying that unless you had a DM solidly in charge of everything happening in the game, it was terrible (you still see ghosts of that from time to time even now). But it transformed in usage over the 1990s, for sure, and by the 2000s definitely wasn't an insult for many people. Nor is min-maxer or optimizer, though there are people who freak out when those terms are mentioned. Usually, in my experience, because they're total min-maxers, and that doesn't fit with their self-image as "real roleplayers" or the like, something I've never fully understood.

You could argue I've got a tic about this because I've seen its negative usage so much, often ladled with so much active contempt. But--well, let me unpack this a bit.

I suspect since you self-identify as a power gamer, when you use it, you're comfortable. Its analogous to other groups claiming a term that is used as a slur (there's an obvious example I'm not going to name). And when around people who are comfortable with that, its fine.

But on the Net no one knows you. Similar to other things, its impossible in this context to tell whether its applied as a slight or not. And as a number of others have pointed out, if you see it in use, the probability in general usage its not intended neutrally or positively. Consider the original post that started this side discussion; read it in the light of the fact that your experience with the term is not universal (nor, I think common, but that's hard to prove).

Yeah, it doesn't seem like something you can cure "supply side". I do think it's worth eliminating some of the pointless plethora of options in certain games. 3E and 4E could both have lost 70-80% of their Feats (across all books/supplements - a much smaller proportion in core books) and nothing of value would have been lost (same with 3E PrCs). But those were mostly bad and not likely to be causing analysis paralysis. To cure that I think requires a different mind-set and self-work, a willingness to do things like break down a problem and apply spreadsheets and pro/con lists and so on (I have helped people with it before, though not as related to TT RPGs). It also requires the person to want to overcome it. I know a couple of terminal ditherers (not in my main RPG group though), and both of them actually, on some level, enjoy dithering and debating and considering and re-considering, so they may moan about how long it takes them to decide things, but they never make any efforts to speed up or sharpen their decision-making process. I don't fault 'em, they both like what they like, but I do feel like the "I'm such a ditherer!" is almost a boast sometimes lol.

Well, many of the people I refer to don't consider it an issue; if anything they kind of resent being rushed (I don't feel the same about my own outbreaks, but given its gotten worse with time, rather than better, I doubt I'm fixing it any time soon). I don't know that they enjoy it exactly, but they don't consider doing it a flaw. They just want to take their time.

To me its still too clearly decision paralysis to one degree or another, but they don't see it that way.

 

[MichaelSomething]

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm not sure how that relates to this thread, but okay.

 

[Hussar]

Well, to relate it to the thread, my question would be, is that enough to play an Animal Crossings style scenario/campaign? Is all you need a handful of races and now we can play Animal Crossings in D&D?

I would say no, but, I've never played Animal Crossings.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, to relate it to the thread, my question would be, is that enough to play an Animal Crossings style scenario/campaign? Is all you need a handful of races and now we can play Animal Crossings in D&D?

I would say no, but, I've never played Animal Crossings.

I think this thread has finally crossed the shark...

 

[pemerton]

It does not.

From what you quote, it seems that it does but euphemistically:

The genre deals with how alien forces might alter us, perverting our expectations and understanding of autonomy, debasing our minds, and separating us from what makes us human. . . . cosmic horror makes characters feel gradually unmoored from their familiar reality. . . .

The genre has a history of framing marginalized demographics as monstrous and stigmatizing mental illness. Be aware and avoid those tropes.
​

 

[dave2008]

From what you quote, it seems that it does but euphemistically:

The genre deals with how alien forces might alter us, perverting our expectations and understanding of autonomy, debasing our minds, and separating us from what makes us human. . . . cosmic horror makes characters feel gradually unmoored from their familiar reality. . . .​

​

The genre has a history of framing marginalized demographics as monstrous and stigmatizing mental illness. Be aware and avoid those tropes.​

​

True, and some one else gave a very reasonable explanation for that up thread. Basically the 2nd line you quotes sums it up pretty much.