D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Maxperson]

I know we had a fairly contentious thread on this topic last year and that is not agreed upon by everyone who likes Dark Sun.

Sure, but those translated into, "It's not important to me that Psions be in Dark Sun." If you read the 2e Dark Sun setting, it's true that Psions are suuuuuuuper important to Dark Sun.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Maybe yea. I've seen suggestions of rumors to that end but still awaiting results. TCoE VRGtR & Rhime were almost certainly mostly frozen when he took over*. Admitting the old way aren't the law of the land & thinking in ways that show they aren't still being considered are different things.

Even stuff like the pick a creature type lineages no doubt needed to kowtow to the foundational booboos created by the 70% like how creature monotyping affected spells & abilities in ways that almost certainly introduced big problems in what they can/can't be targeted by if a PC who picks some nonstandard type.

*or at least had the broad strokes set.

Maybe, but Lineages would not have passed the 70% test and were not subjected to it because of that. WotC knew it had to do something, regardless of what players thought that they wanted.

I know we had a fairly contentious thread on this topic last year and that is not agreed upon by everyone who likes Dark Sun.

Yeah, but it was a recurring theme that a lot of those people who didn't like Dark Sun but had strong opinions on it nonetheless definitely didn't think Psionics should be even part of it. Also there was very high correlation between people claiming to "love Dark Sun" and "not need psionics" for it, and people who express reliably negative opinions about psionics as anything beyond a vague theme - none of it demonstrated that a close-to-2E/4E DS didn't need psions or heavy psionic rules. Just that the people on this board (so the 13% of "40+" D&D players) have a subset persistently opposed to psionics.

And let's be real - there were even people in that thread who didn't even think Defiling/Preserving mattered.

At some point it's just Desert D&D or A Princess of Mars or something, not Dark Sun.

I could see removing psionics from being important, but you need to thoroughly reboot the setting and rework it. All these half-arsed "I want it like Dark Sun except with less psionics and maybe defiling is really weak and also let's bring in normal Clerics and Paladins and so on..." approaches were pretty bad takes. Whereas if you did a full rebuild and made it full-on weird fantasy and made psionics just part of the mix, and magical fallout and stuff the rest you could have something cool. That way you could avoid psions being needed - but you need a re-write, not just chopping them out and pretending they never happened.

 

[TwoSix]

I could see removing psionics from being important, but you need to thoroughly reboot the setting and rework it. All these half-arsed "I want it like Dark Sun except with less psionics and maybe defiling is really weak and also let's bring in normal Clerics and Paladins and so on..." approaches were pretty bad takes. Whereas if you did a full rebuild and made it full-on weird fantasy and made psionics just part of the mix, and magical fallout and stuff the rest you could have something cool. That way you could avoid psions being needed - but you need a re-write, not just chopping them out and pretending they never happened.

Well, I try to assume that rebooting/remixing the setting is the take that people are presenting with "Dark Sun doesn't need psionics", not just "Well, let's skip it and ignore the hole it leaves in the setting." My own WWN take on Dark Sun doesn't have an explicit psionic class, but I'm aggressively mixing Dark Sun with other WWN concepts and my own stuff.

My own take of "Dark Sun doesn't need psionics" is that a reimagining of Dark Sun can deviate from 2e or 4e lore and still BE Dark Sun; I know from other threads that others don't accept that premise.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

"Well, let's skip it and ignore the hole it leaves in the setting."

Unfortunately that was pretty much exactly what the suggestion tended to be, and, to this day, still tends to be. It's literally the premise of this entire thread. Ignore the hole, act like everything is fine, don't even try to add to the 2 (arguably 3) psionic subclasses.

What I don't want to see is just half-arsing it. Like, they take psionics out for the most part, just lip-service it like suggested in this thread, and then try to have DS' setting be identical to 2E, 4E, or worst of all, 2E's 2nd DS box set.

 

[Minigiant]

The thing about Psion(icists) in Dark Sun is the people who really like Dark Sun really want them and the ones who are meh are meh.

The fundamental basis of Dark Sun is how it differs on how it handles the supernatural classes. Most Arcanists are destructive. Clerics are either gone or tied to the elements. Druids are rare or gone. Paladins serve evil Sorcerers. And Psionicists replace the rest as the main source of supernatural effect which tilts supernatural effects toward mental aspects.

You can downplay all of this but you severely reduce the grab of the setting. You reduce much of the added features. Basically you would be attempting to convince people to spend money for stuff they already have for people who don't really care.

 

[Maxperson]

You can't reimagine it and deviate all that much, or it will only be Dark Sun in name. I don't see how you can reimagine it as not having a psionic core and still remain Dark Sun.

 

[ChaosOS]

One of the reasons I wrote the OP was that while "Psionics", broadly speaking, are important to Dark Sun, Psionics is not the same as having a psion class. Psionic themed subclasses and monsters, plus a boon-style Wild Talent system, are far more important parts of psionics to the setting. For me, Psionics is that gladiator who "cheats" by telekinetically retrieving their disarmed weapon. Psionics is the Psurlon that lurks in sand street. "The masters of the way" are... not actually that important to the function and themes of the setting. Sorcerer Kings and their templars rule over the city states through arcane, defiling magic. Yes, they also had access to psionics, but in 5e terms that's just some pionic-themed spells like Mind Sliver or Telekenises or Synaptic Static.

Dark Sun has other themes that would be important to address - restrictions on races, reflavoring & reframing classes, survival rules - but those all seem very doable in a 5e XYZ's Atlas of Athas based on what they pulled off with Van Richten's

 

[Maxperson]

One of the reasons I wrote the OP was that while "Psionics", broadly speaking, are important to Dark Sun, Psionics is not the same as having a psion class. Psionic themed subclasses and monsters, plus a boon-style Wild Talent system, are far more important parts of psionics to the setting. For me, Psionics is that gladiator who "cheats" by telekinetically retrieving their disarmed weapon. Psionics is the Psurlon that lurks in sand street. "The masters of the way" are... not actually that important to the function and themes of the setting. Sorcerer Kings and their templars rule over the city states through arcane, defiling magic. Yes, they also had access to psionics, but in 5e terms that's just some pionic-themed spells like Mind Sliver or Telekenises or Synaptic Static.

Dark Sun has other themes that would be important to address - restrictions on races, reflavoring & reframing classes, survival rules - but those all seem very doable in a 5e XYZ's Atlas of Athas based on what they pulled off with Van Richten's

Psionicists were so important to Dark Sun that they did something never done in any other setting or PHB. They allowed demihumans to level without limit in that class. Yes, wild talents were all over. So were Psionicists. I get that to you they aren't important enough to be core for your game, but to the setting they are critical.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I mean they could quite easily resolve the issue with some classes not belonging and psions by simply making psionics a variation of magic chosen at character creation. Any spellcaster can decide to be a psion - they will use the spell points and their "spells" will swap any verbal component for an Aura one: The character produces a discernible sensory effect around them like their eyes glowing, a resonant noise, or a strong smell.

Hey presto. Those Bards, Clerics etc that weren't around in 2nd ed Dark Sun now have a place, and the people wanting psions not have psions in many varieties! Win-win!

 

[Maxperson]

I mean they could quite easily resolve the issue with some classes not belonging and psions by simply making psionics a variation of magic chosen at character creation. Any spellcaster can decide to be a psion - they will use the spell points and their "spells" will swap any verbal component for an Aura one: The character produces a discernible sensory effect around them like their eyes glowing, a resonant noise, or a strong smell.

Hey presto. Those Bards, Clerics etc that weren't around in 2nd ed Dark Sun now have a place, and the people wanting psions not have psions in many varieties! Win-win!

That would be one of those half-assed solutions @Ruin Explorer was talking about. The kind that doesn't make much of anyone happy.