D&D 5E What most needs revision for the (hypothetical) 50th anniversary core books?

Stalker0

Legend
Oh I forgot the biggest changes of all.... monsters.

A common critique of 5e is monsters as "bags of hitpoints". There was a really cool design to later 4th edition monsters that was some of the baby that got thrown out with the bathwater.

For example, the monster categories in 4e (solider, brute, artillery) were actually quite useful. 4e went in with the understanding that "it takes a party to fight a party".... which is 100% correct. Any time you use less than a party against PCs you really have to compensate. 5e sort of notes that but it forgot some of the lessons learned. Also 4e monsters had much more interesting abilities in many cases, 5e monsters are just generic by comparison.

Lastly, 4e had a lot of interesting traps and effects to just add to a fight. You can do that in 5e, but 4e better outlined it and showcased examples of it.

So yeah....a good rework of monsters could be useful.
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
I want four core books:

• Players (including everything for skills, combat, etc. plus build-your-own lineage and swappable class features)

• DM (including all worldbuilding, magic items, genre options)

• Monsters (and other kinds of challenges)

• Setting (Forgotten Realms as separable setting assumptions, or use Dark Sun instead, or whatever)
 

Mercurius

Legend
Re: Apology edition what I mean is that all of the design in early 5E was predicated on this fear that they might possibly offend someone, and they desperately wanted to get back as much of the PF playerbase as possible, whilst retaining at least some of the 4E playerbase (who they actually treated worse, I guess because they felt they were more loyal and thus could afford to ignore - they weren't entirely wrong, either!). There were a lot of bad decisions that were the result of this overcaution. Some good new stuff came through anyway, like Advantage/Disadvantage, but an awful lot of stuff is just sort of hanging around. The Sorcerer is one example. The "70% approval" thing they used to have (which seems to be gone now) was emblematic of this whole attitude.

However, they now have 50m+ players. Most of them never played PF or even 3.XE at all, or 4E. A huge number are new to RPGs. They will have different things they like about D&D, and different things which are "sacred cows" to them about 5E, that they really don't want changed, and they're much younger, so will be more accepting or even demanding of novelty and change than 40+ grogs whose groups might have a health incident if they had to learn a new rule or a class got rejigged (I kid, I'm 43 for god's sake but sometimes I get that vibe from certain posts - posts, not posters, note, no-one is quite that groggy all the time lol).

Instead of trying to just gather up what they can of the old 3.XE and 4E players, which was DND Next's purpose, they need to go forwards really embrace the new players, who are so numerous, and make sure D&D becomes this thing that they want to teach their kids in 20+ years or whatever (as some of the 40+ people are now doing), and that they're still playing at 20, 30, 40 and so on. They're potentially easy to lose because much as many grogs hate novelty, younger players tend to love it. You have to strike the right balance, and it's a totally different balance to 2014 or whenever.
OK, yes, I basically agree. My one caveat, and it is a significant one, is that they have reached this level of popularity with that very same game they published in 2014. There were other factors, of course, and really it was a combination of things coming together in a totally unexpected and pleasing way, but one of those factors was the game itself, that was clearly more approachable than the last two editions, and one that found a compromising middle ground between old and new, traditional and post-Warcraft fantasy. Meaning, they were successful with the game they designed, so should be hesitant to veer too far away from that, at least as far as the core rules are concerned.

The two main areas of complaint that I see for 5E is in one of two general areas: One, the culture war stuff, with extremes on either side. I tend to think this is much milder among the total player base than it seems on the internet, and think WotC should be careful not to go too far in one direction or the other, and that any changes should always have "better playability" in mind (which is why, I think, the racial bonuses going away is fine, because it doesn't limit anything or stop DMs from still having them as an optional rule, but it opens up character creation so they aren't focused on race-class optimization; meaning, regardless of the politics behind it, it actually improves playability).

The other area of frequent complaint, at least on the internet, is some variation of it is too bland, too simplistic, not enough options, not made for "real gamers," etc. And this isn't only coming from diehards. My group is comprised of casual Gen-Xers, most of whom, when we got our group together in 2008, hadn't played since college or 2E. For the most part, they really liked 4E and I know one, at least, hasn't been as struck with 5E because of the reduction in tactical options. On the internet I see some complain about the overall failure to make good on the whole modular option/complexity dial thing, or keeping the scope of D&D too narrow (FR campaign after FR campaign).

On the other hand, I'm guessing these complaints are mainly from older players who miss elements of crunchier editions, be it 4E or 3E. But I do wonder if at some point, the new player base will also want something more.

(There is also a relatively small, but vocal, contingent of folks who say 5E sucks because it isn't 1E or "real D&D," but most of them have moved on to OSR games, although still complain about 5E not being what they want D&D to be...it is a bit of a head-scratcher).

Anyhow, I think the time is ripe for 5E to take it up an octave. They've established a huge player base mostly (but not entirely) comprised of new players, a lot of whom have been playing for several years. While it made sense not to broaden the scope of D&D in the first half decade or so, I think some of these players will eventually want something more or different, be it non-traditional settings (which, since 2018, they're starting to get with the Magic settings) such as Dark Sun and Planescape, or alternate approaches to the game (modular options/complexity dials), even a new sub-edition that is a bit more bold.

So if I were WotC, I would keep doing what they're doing for the next few years, fleshing out the classic offerings with the planes and Dark Sun, and then take the lessons from first decade of 5E and polish it up for a revised edition, and then after keep expanding outward, with a greater range of "styles of D&D" in terms of adventures, worlds, even crunch. I would also think, at some point (maybe 2025?) a new game line of science fiction games and settings, perhaps following the Alternity approach.

So something like this:
2021-23: Flesh out "first phase" of 5E with planes, Dark Sun, perhaps a capstone FR setting book. Another Magic book or two.
2024: Revised core rulebooks.
2025+: Wider approaches to D&D, with a core stream remaining of "classic D&D" adventures. "Alternity."
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I figure it is impossible for the hypothetical Anniversary Core Books to veer too far away from the game that we have now.

For the most part, any actual changes in the core books would have to go thru the normal process of UA approval and then made official, before they would end up in the Anniversary edition.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I figure it is impossible for the hypothetical Anniversary Core Books to veer too far away from the game that we have now.

For the most part, any actual changes in the core books would have to go thru the normal process of UA approval and then made official, before they would end up in the Anniversary edition.
I think that's true to an extent, but a lot of it could be simply incorporating stuff that already went through that process and appeared in other books, be it Xanathar, Tasha, or any of the others.

But I don't think they'd announce a 50th anniversary edition until 2023, maybe late 2022. At that point they could start publishing in UA revised options for ranger, monk, sorcerer, etc, and do polls for favorite sub-classes.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I feel like they are, though? I was impressed with the cleverness of their approach in Tasha's, of just making the new chargen choices options - no formal rules change is required. There are already lots of chargen optional rules, like all the Skill variant rules. They can do the same with alignments.
I don't own Tasha's so have to take the fifth. But that's good news, I'd say.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
So... I don't know, the two biggest changes that the 5E designers wish they could change are racial options, and alignment. Beyond that however, I don't see too much "revisionism" in the recent books. They seem happy with the class, subclass system which is the core of 5E's (player) gameplay.

And I don't really think the alignment/racial changes alone are enough to merit an "Anniversary Edition." So I know that there is speculation that this 5.5 edition is happening, but I don't see why the designers or the corporate overlords would be interested in messing with their best-selling edition to such a big degree.
 


Scribe

Legend
Toast or an optional rule?

For the life of me I don't know why WotC can't take a both/and approach with some of these changes (e.g. alignment, racial ability mods, etc).
Toast. Anything else is just a half measure that will not satisfy the vocal people who are against it.

See: Tasha's 'optional' ASI rule.
 

Mercurius

Legend
So... I don't know, the two biggest changes that the 5E designers wish they could change are racial options, and alignment. Beyond that however, I don't see too much "revisionism" in the recent books. They seem happy with the class, subclass system which is the core of 5E's (player) gameplay.

And I don't really think the alignment/racial changes alone are enough to merit an "Anniversary Edition." So I know that there is speculation that this 5.5 edition is happening, but I don't see why the designers or the corporate overlords would be interested in messing with their best-selling edition to such a big degree.
I agree if we're talking a "5.5" in the literal sense (ala 3.5). But in actuality it could be (and perhaps should be) more of a "5.3."

A year or two I did a poll on this, long before Tasha's came out and talk about the anniversary had heated up. The consensus was somewhere in the 5.1 to 5.2: cosmetic changes with a few new bells and whistles, but nothing major or even moderate.

Since then, I've notice that--while I haven't repeated the poll--the consensus seems to be more in the 5.3 to 5.4 range. Still backwards compatible, but some moderate changes, revamped classes, and a few alterations (e.g. racial bonuses and alignment).

So I think the key is backwards compatibility. They can do a significant amount without breaking the connection, so to speak.

As for why the corporate overlords would want a 5.5 (or 5.3), well, their bottom line is the bottom line, and core rulebooks sell like hot cakes. I think Revised core rulebooks in the mold I'm talking about--again, incorporating stuff from the first decade of 5E, revamped classes, a few adjustments, new art--would sell through the roof.
 

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