D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

Yaarel

He Mage
Compare Wizard spell points that recharge per long rest versus Warlock spell points that recharge per short rest.

The Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer all share the same Spellcasting table for a fullcaster. So when I refer to "Wizard" the same is true for all fullcasters generally.

Both Wizard and Warlock get the same number of cantrips at the same time. Also both access the highest slots 6 to 9, at the same time. Namely: slot 6 at level 11, S7 at L13, S8 at L15, and S9 at L17. (The Wizard gets an additional S6 and S7 at levels 19 and 20, but I am less concerned about these, since a nice capstone can make up for them.)

Of concern are the spells of slots 1 to 5.

Both the Wizard and the Warlock are fullcasters, so their spellcasting abilities need to be comparable, even if one is refreshing per long rest and the other is refreshing per short rest.

It turns out, that the Warlock is especially insufficient at spellcasting around levels 8 to 10. Later, it gets better again, but the mid-tier is especially painful for the Warlock.

For both Wizard and Warlock, each spell slot is counted as being worth a number of points equal to its slot level + 1.

Look at level 10 for both classes, Wizard and Warlock. The Wizard has about 4.667 times more spell points than the Warlock does. In other words, the Warlock would need to have almost four short rests in the same day to remain comparable to a fullcaster. This disparity feels unacceptable. I dont want this situation for a Psion that uses a Warlock chassis. I want the Psion to be a fullcaster.

LWIZARD
spell points for slots 1 to 5

per Long Rest
WARLOCK
spell points for slots 1 to 5

per Short Rest
Ratio
L1422
L2641.5
L31462.333
L41762.833
L52583.125
L62983.625
L734103.4
L839103.9
L950124.167
L1056124.667
L1156183.111
L1256183.111
L1356183.111
L1456183.111
L1556183.111
1656183.111
1756242.333
1862242.583
1962242.583
2062242.583


In sum, the Warlock needs more spell points, especially levels 9 and 10, but also levels 6 to 8 require attention.

The number of short rests that characters can enjoy each day, is campaign dependent. Players at one table will have different experiences from players at an other table.

I assume it is fair to expect one, probably two short rests. If so, then the ratio of Wizard spell points to Warlock spell points should be roughly about 3 times more.



Therefore, the Psion will gain three spell slots sooner, at level 8, instead of at level 11. The tweak increases the number of spell points available during the levels when the Psion needs them most.



PSION
LNumber of
Slots

per
Short Rest
Slot LevelEquivalent
spell points

per
Short Rest
Cantrip


At-Will
Invocation


At-Will
Arcanum


each per
Long Rest
L11S122
L22S1422
L32S262
L42S263
L52S3833
L62S383
L72S41034
L83S4153
L93S51835
L103S5184
L113S5184S6
L123S51846
L133S5184S7
L143S5184
L153S51847S8
L163S5184
L174S5244S9
L184S52448
L194S5244
L204S5244
 

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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I like Kibbles as well, even if I have some minor quibbles about specific designs. But psionics-magic transparency is actually a really good thing, because you want people to be able to interact with each other. Arcane and Divine spellcasters both interact just fine, making psionics something special and different just exacerbates frustrations with it not being a core system.
You can't really keep them separate, because if you do then you really weaken the PC. Multiclassing becomes really bad at that point compared to other combinations.
Personally I see that as kind of a good thing... But only because I don't imagine MAGIC and Psionics to be fungible.

But you know what could be? Ki points. Maneuver Dice. Rages. Psionic Energy Dice. Other class features and functions that aren't magic but require focus, powerful emotions, or control.

Rather than making Psions into just another full caster class to lump in with the rest of the full casters, we could make them interact with other systems of character power to make multiclassing an Intelligence Caster and a Warrior or Rogue type character much more attractive and, ultimately, Gishy!

And honestly I think that's a much more interesting angle to take.
Actually, for the 3e Psion, acid and poison are prominent in various psychometabolism powers, such as when shapeshifting into a nightmarish form.

I dont want to especially encourage such damage types, but they is at least as legitimate an option as fire and cold.

Of course, the central damage types of the Psion are force and psychic. But for other damage types like fire and poison, it seems ok to have an option that can choose one other damage type to then modify any Psion spell with the force or psychic damage type.

So the psion pyrokineticist will feel different from a pyromancer, because the kineticist damage will be fire AND force, or fire AND psychic. It feels flavorfully vivid, for example, to launch a psychic attack that induces a nightmare of being on fire, while the body actually catches fire.
Have you looked at Kibbles' Psion? It's here: 5e - Psion (KibblesTasty) by KibblesTasty

And holy crap is it interesting! They do add Telekinesis as Force but also Psychokinesis as energy manipulation. Only 3 types. Fire, Ice, Electricity.

And using their setup you could make a really simple "Poisoned Body" discipline where you modify your body to be toxic to others and basically make the cantrip version into a spitting poison spray with Power Point Pumpability to make it have more range, do more damage, hit an area, or deal Acid damage instead of poison and double damage to objects!

The other big things to consider are: Because the class's main discipline function is cantrip-upcasting in different ways they get a lot of flexibility in function as they level up without costing their limited Psi point resources. But they -can- use their limited Psi Points (Caps out at 20 instead of 24) to simulate spellcasting.

But since their spellcasting costs 1 power point per spell level, rather than more variable spell point costs, I think they actually wind up with a little more spellcasting than warlocks... but their spells are more limited in scope. Specifically, their Disciplines only get a very curated list of spells tied to that specific Discipline. Telepathy gets 16 "Spells Known", but they're all about invading someone's mind, striking some terror, or dealing some Psychic Damage. They get Dominate Beast and Person, but no Charm effects.

And then they get Warlock style 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells once per day, of course. And all their spells that -can- be upcast, even beyond 5th level, just take 1 power point to upcast per level. So if you wanna throw an Upcasted Fireball as a Psychokineticist you spend 3 points for the spell itself and increase it's damage with every extra power point you spend on it... Up to a Maximum, at 20th level, of your Psi Point Cap. 10.

They can do a "Tenth Level" Fireball! But it takes -half- of your total points for the day.

Seriously, I think if you look at this thing it might honestly be pretty much exactly what you're looking for in a way you weren't looking for it.

If I were doing Dark Sun, here's my mock up of the TOC

  1. Introduction
    1. The 9 Things to know about Athas
      1. Desert
      2. Savage
      3. Few Metals
      4. Arcane magic is bad
      5. Silent Gods
      6. Sorcerer Kings
      7. City States
      8. Psionics is tops
      9. Races are Different
  2. The History of Athas
    1. The 5 Ages
    2. The Future
    3. The Truth?
  3. The Races of Athas
    1. Dragonborn
      1. Dray subrace
    2. Dwarves
      1. Mul subrace
    3. Elves
    4. Goliaths
      1. Half Giant subrace
    5. Halflings
    6. Humans
    7. Thr-Kreen
    8. Other Races
    9. Cleansing Wars Optional Rule
  4. The Classes of Athas
    1. Cleric
      1. Elemental Domain
    2. Druid
    3. Fighter
    4. Monk
    5. Paladin
      1. Oath of the Templar
    6. Psion
      1. Will of the Kineticist
      2. Will of the Telepath
      3. Will of the Wilder
    7. Sorcerer
    8. Warlock
      1. Sorcerous Pact
    9. Wizard
    10. Other Classes
    11. Power Source Restriction Optional Rules
  5. The Magic of Athas
    1. Arcane Magic
      1. Defiling and Preserving
    2. Divine Magic
      1. The Elements
      2. The Templarate
    3. New Spells
  6. The Mind of Athas
    1. The Will
    2. The Way
    3. Wild Talents
    4. Wild Options
  7. The World of Athas
    1. The Desert
    2. The City States
    3. The Hinderlands
    4. The Planes
    5. Slavery
      1. Content Warning
      2. Gladiators
      3. New Weapons and Armor Optional rule
  8. The Monsters of Athas
  9. Some adventure

This is why I don;t think 5e has everything for Dark Sun
I would LOVE this book. I would read the everloving naughty word out of it. Cover to cover. Just like Ravenloft.

And then I would run the naughty word out of it.
 
Last edited:

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Actually, for the 3e Psion, acid and poison are prominent in various psychometabolism powers, such as when shapeshifting into a nightmarish form.

I dont want to especially encourage such damage types, but they is at least as legitimate an option as fire and cold.

Of course, the central damage types of the Psion are force and psychic. But for other damage types like fire and poison, it seems ok to have an option that can choose one other damage type to then modify any Psion spell with the force or psychic damage type.

So the psion pyrokineticist will feel different from a pyromancer, because the kineticist damage will be fire AND force, or fire AND psychic. It feels flavorfully vivid, for example, to launch a psychic attack that induces a nightmare of being on fire, while the body actually catches fire.

I agree with this completely.

A Psion Kineticist would be mentally agitating and vibrating a target's body with their telekinesis. They would be shaking and rubbing someone so hard, the target catches fire. The attack could be 2 damage types. Force from the direct telekinesis. And Fire from the friction.

Pyrokinesis
You violently shake a creature or object with 60 feet with your telekinesis, raising it's temperature until ignites. You may expend Psionic Points and Psionic Energy dice to force the target to make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 1d6 damage per Psionic point expended and force damage equal to the amount of Psionic Energy Dice expended then rolled. On a successful save, the target takes half damage. Unattented nonmagical objects automatically fail their saving throws.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Compare Wizard spell points that recharge per long rest versus Warlock spell points that recharge per short rest.

The Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer all share the same Spellcasting table for a fullcaster. So when I refer to "Wizard" the same is true for all fullcasters generally.

Both Wizard and Warlock get the same number of cantrips at the same time. Also both access the highest slots 6 to 9, at the same time. Namely: slot 6 at level 11, S7 at L13, S8 at L15, and S9 at L17. (The Wizard gets an additional S6 and S7 at levels 19 and 20, but I am less concerned about these, since a nice capstone can make up for them.)

Of concern are the spells of slots 1 to 5.

Both the Wizard and the Warlock are fullcasters, so their spellcasting abilities need to be comparable, even if one is refreshing per long rest and the other is refreshing per short rest.

It turns out, that the Warlock is especially insufficient at spellcasting around levels 8 to 10. Later, it gets better again, but the mid-tier is especially painful for the Warlock.

For both Wizard and Warlock, each spell slot is counted as being worth a number of points equal to its slot level + 1.

Look at level 10 for both classes, Wizard and Warlock. The Wizard has about 4.667 times more spell points than the Warlock does. In other words, the Warlock would need to have almost four short rests in the same day to remain comparable to a fullcaster. This disparity feels unacceptable. I dont want this situation for a Psion that uses a Warlock chassis. I want the Psion to be a fullcaster.

LWIZARD
spell points for slots 1 to 5

per Long Rest
WARLOCK
spell points for slots 1 to 5

per Short Rest
Ratio
L1422
L2641.5
L31462.333
L41762.833
L52583.125
L62983.625
L734103.4
L839103.9
L950124.167
L1056124.667
L1156183.111
L1256183.111
L1356183.111
L1456183.111
L1556183.111
1656183.111
1756242.333
1862242.583
1962242.583
2062242.583


In sum, the Warlock needs more spell points, especially levels 9 and 10, but also levels 6 to 8 require attention.

The number of short rests that characters can enjoy each day, is campaign dependent. Players at one table will have different experiences from players at an other table.

I assume it is fair to expect one, probably two short rests. If so, then the ratio of Wizard spell points to Warlock spell points should be roughly about 3 times more.



Therefore, the Psion will gain three spell slots sooner, at level 8, instead of at level 11. The tweak increases the number of spell points available during the levels when the Psion needs them most.



PSION
LNumber of
Slots

per
Short Rest
Slot LevelEquivalent
spell points

per
Short Rest
Cantrip


At-Will
Invocation


At-Will
Arcanum


each per
Long Rest
L11S122
L22S1422
L32S262
L42S263
L52S3833
L62S383
L72S41034
L83S4153
L93S51835
L103S5184
L113S5184S6
L123S51846
L133S5184S7
L143S5184
L153S51847S8
L163S5184
L174S5244S9
L184S52448
L194S5244
L204S5244
I think it's a little better on the Wizard side of things. Did you factor in that during a short rest the Wizard gets back half his level in level 1-6 spell slots?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Personally I see that as kind of a good thing... But only because I don't imagine MAGIC and Psionics to be fungible.

But you know what could be? Ki points. Maneuver Dice. Rages. Psionic Energy Dice. Other class features and functions that aren't magic but require focus, powerful emotions, or control.

Rather than making Psions into just another full caster class to lump in with the rest of the full casters, we could make them interact with other systems of character power to make multiclassing an Intelligence Caster and a Warrior or Rogue type character much more attractive and, ultimately, Gishy!

And honestly I think that's a much more interesting angle to take.
The way I see it, all magic needs the weave(or its equivalent) to function. It's only how the weave is accessed that makes magic types different. Otherwise, divine would also be different from both arcane and psionic and shouldn't interact with either one.

Arcane utilizes learning or intuitive use of rituals and words to function. It's magic from outside of the user.

Divine utilizes prayer and other power borrowed from a god or other divine source. It's also magic from outside of the user.

Psionic utilizes mental energy and the personal power of the user. It's magic from inside of the user.

For me, it's not worth weakening the PC in order to make psionics so different that there is no interaction with the other forms of magic that exist. It doesn't change the feel to me to have that interaction there, but I can see where it could for other people.
 

ChaosOS

Legend
The way I see it, all magic needs the weave(or its equivalent) to function. It's only how the weave is accessed that makes magic types different. Otherwise, divine would also be different from both arcane and psionic and shouldn't interact with either one.

Arcane utilizes learning or intuitive use of rituals and words to function. It's magic from outside of the user.

Divine utilizes prayer and other power borrowed from a god or other divine source. It's also magic from outside of the user.

Psionic utilizes mental energy and the personal power of the user. It's magic from inside of the user.

For me, it's not worth weakening the PC in order to make psionics so different that there is no interaction with the other forms of magic that exist. It doesn't change the feel to me to have that interaction there, but I can see where it could for other people.
Athas doesn't have the weave, and it's totally unnecessary to say that there needs to be some central magic processing plant to say that different sources of supernatural power can interact with each other. I think the more salient point is all supernatural power sources are interacting with energies that are in the world, and even if a wizard counterspelling a psion is coming at it from a totally different approach, the wizard can still interact.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Athas doesn't have the weave, and it's totally unnecessary to say that there needs to be some central magic processing plant to say that different sources of supernatural power can interact with each other. I think the more salient point is all supernatural power sources are interacting with energies that are in the world, and even if a wizard counterspelling a psion is coming at it from a totally different approach, the wizard can still interact.
In 5e it does. Below talks about the Weave(or the equivalent in Athas). Without the Weave or its equivalent, magic doesn't function and in Athas it functions, so some form of the Weave exists there.

"The worlds with in the D&D multiverse are magical places. All existence is suffused with magical power, and potential energy lies untapped in every rock, stream, and living creature, and even in the air itself. Raw magic is the stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of existence, permeating every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the multiverse."

As to whether you need the Weave or not to explain magic, of course you don't. You can homebrew your game to exclude the Weave.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
The way I see it, all magic needs the weave(or its equivalent) to function. It's only how the weave is accessed that makes magic types different. Otherwise, divine would also be different from both arcane and psionic and shouldn't interact with either one.

Arcane utilizes learning or intuitive use of rituals and words to function. It's magic from outside of the user.

Divine utilizes prayer and other power borrowed from a god or other divine source. It's also magic from outside of the user.

Psionic utilizes mental energy and the personal power of the user. It's magic from inside of the user.

For me, it's not worth weakening the PC in order to make psionics so different that there is no interaction with the other forms of magic that exist. It doesn't change the feel to me to have that interaction there, but I can see where it could for other people.
That's because to you Psionics is the third type of Magic.

To me Magic is Magic and Psionics is Psionics. They're not just different sources of the "Same Power" they're different powers.

Probably because of how I first -really- interacted with it in the 2e Psionics handbook...
Many people assume that psionics is just another type of magic. The AD&D® game already has two types of magic - one wielded by wizards and the other by clerics. So it is not unreasonable to ask, "Does the game need a third type of magic?" The answer is no, the game probably does not need a third kind of magic.

But the question is misinformed because psionics is not magic. Magic is the ability to shape, control, harness, and utilize natural forces that infuse the game world and surround the characters. It is based on the principle that, through the use of words, gestures, and catalyzing materials of unique power, these external energies can be controlled.

The key element of that statement is external energy. Magical effects are produced externally by manipulating outside forces. The power does not come from inside the wizard or priest but from somewhere else.

Psionics is the complete opposite of this. The psionicist shapes, controls, harnesses, and utilizes natural forces that infuse his own being. His effort is focused inward rather than outward. He must be completely in touch with and aware of even the tiniest workings of his body and mind.

This type of knowledge comes from long and intense meditation coupled with physical extremes. The psionicist finds enlightenment in both complete exhaustion and complete relaxation, in both pain and pleasure. The mind and body are only parts of a much greater unity. Indeed, discussing one without the other, as so many people do, seems nonsensical to a psionicist; they cannot be separated. The body produces energy and vitality, the mind gives it shape and reality.

Neither does the psionicist study or pray for his powers. He carries them with him wherever he goes. As long as his mind and body are rested - i.e., as long as he has not depleted his psionic strength - his powers are available to him.
But then 3e came along and... didn't mention Psionics being Magic, either.
Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind’s potential. A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks that nonpsionic characters can only accomplish—if they’re even capable of doing them at all—by using gross physical skills such as brute strength or raw agility, or by using intellect or force of will as distinct from the natural power of the mind itself.

Your character’s mind is an infinite metaphorical plane, on which all things are possible. It may be that all characters have within them the potential for harnessing the energy of the mind, but only those who succeed in tapping into that potential can become psionic characters. A psionic character knows how to navigate the mental pathways that lead to amazing edifices of thought and energy. Knowing the path, the psionic character walks it. Like a flare thrown off a star, a psionic power is manifested from the psionic character’s energy of consciousness.

Now, you hunger to learn the psionic art. With this handbook, you can. Then let all the world stand in awe of your character’s mental might. As you will it, so it is done.
Not even once.

As to it "Weakening" the PC... meh? It "Weakens" certain specific builds by making Magic and Psionics nonfungible if you make a Psionicist/Wizard. But it's not any weaker than taking 10 levels of Wizard and 10 levels of Rogue, isn't it? You're trading in higher level spell slots for that sweet, sweet, Sneak Attack damage.

Meanwhile if we followed my suggestion going Psionicist/Monk would be pretty great if you could trade Ki and Power Points back and forth. Or use Power Points to buy extra Maneuver Dice for your Battlemaster Fighter/Telekinesis Psion.

Of course I also have 4 different types of magics in my own campaign setting and they don't all interact with a central pillar of "All magic comes from the same place" 'cause honestly that's a terrible design and very narrow in it's applicability. Like it shoehorns all campaign settings into the same thing. I dislike that muchly.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's because to you Psionics is the third type of Magic.

To me Magic is Magic and Psionics is Psionics. They're not just different sources of the "Same Power" they're different powers.
Either it's the second type of magic, or it's the same kind. Divine and Arcane interact with each other as magic.
But then 3e came along and... didn't mention Psionics being Magic, either.

Not even once.
That's not actually true.

This is the default for 3e Psionics.

"PSIONICS-MAGIC TRANSPARENCY
The default rule for psionics and magic is simple: Psionic powers interact with spells and spells interact with psionic powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as transparency."

It then gave you the option to unbalance the game by making them different. You had to opt into that, though. The 3e default was that psionics was magic.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Either it's the second type of magic, or it's the same kind. Divine and Arcane interact with each other as magic.

That's not actually true.

This is the default for 3e Psionics.

"PSIONICS-MAGIC TRANSPARENCY
The default rule for psionics and magic is simple: Psionic powers interact with spells and spells interact with psionic powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as transparency."

It then gave you the option to unbalance the game by making them different. You had to opt into that, though. The 3e default was that psionics was magic.
A "Second Type" to you. Or not magic at all, to me and the writers of both TSR and WotC for previous editions at least.

And while Psionics and Magics can interact, that doesn't mean they're the same thing. Magic can burn your flesh, does that make your flesh magic? A Wisdom save can stop magic from taking hold of your mind. Does that make Wisdom magic?

No. It just means these things interact.

I really dislike the "Let's simplify everything down to one thing" approach to fantasy. It's too clean. Too boring.

There should be -variety-. Different power coming to different people in different ways, rather than everyone just using the same bucket of water and claiming it's somehow different.

4e is where it became "Psionic Magic" which always made me mad. Their devotion to trying to cram everything into the smallest number of boxes possible really sucked... Though, granted, there've always been people, like yourself, who just considered Psionics to be another type of Magic.

But hey... Y'know what the 5e Mystic says about Psionic Magic..?
These heroes are all mystics, followers of a strange and mysterious form of power. Mystics shun the world to turn their eyes inward, mastering the full potential of their minds and exploring their psyches before turning to face the world. Mystics are incredibly rare, and most prefer to keep the nature of their abilities secret. Using their inner, psychic strength, they can read minds, fade into invisibility, transform their bodies into living iron, and seize control of the physical world and bend it to their will.
Not a damned thing.

A "Mysterious form of Power" rather than a Mysterious form of Magic.

But hey, the Mystic is gone. So let's see what they wrote about whether Psionics is Magic in the Psionic Options UA before Tasha's:

Is Psi a Form of Magic? Psi is a supernatural power that emanates from the mind. Like other forms of supernatural power in D&D, it can be used to create magical phenomena, yet it can create other sorts of phenomena as well. In the game’s rules, only certain supernatural effects are classified as magical: magic items, spells, spell attacks, powers fueled by spell slots, and any other effect that the rules explicitly call magical. This distinction is rarely relevant in play, typically coming up only when something like an antimagic field shows up. From a storytelling standpoint, some supernatural effects in D&D weave their power into a formalized form—a spell, for instance—that other effects can disrupt. In contrast, there are other supernatural effects that are so wild, formless, or subtle that it is difficult or impossible to disrupt them. In this article, some of the psionic powers create what the rules consider to be magic and some don’t.
Sooo it can -create- magic, but isn't magic by it's very nature.

What does Tasha's say?
Awake to the psionic power within, a Psi Warrior is a fighter who augments their physical might with psi-infused weapon strikes, telekinetic lashes, and barriers of mental force. Many githyanki train to become such warriors, as do some of the most disciplined high elves. In the world of Eberron, many young kalashtar dream of becoming Psi Warriors.

As a Psi Warrior, you might have honed your psionic abilities through solo discipline, unlocked it under the tutelage of a master, or refined it at an academy dedicated to wielding the mind's power as both weapon and shield.
Annnnd
Most assassins strike with physical weapons, and many burglars and spies use thieves' tools to infiltrate secure locations. In contrast, a Soulknife strikes and infiltrates with the mind, cutting through barriers both physical and psychic. These rogues discover psionic power within themselves and channel it to do their roguish work. They find easy employment as members of thieves' guilds, though they are often mistrusted by rogues who are leery of anyone using strange mind powers to conduct their business. Most governments would also be happy to employ a Soulknife as a spy. Amid the trees of ancient forests on the Material Plane and in the Feywild, some wood elves walk the path of the Soulknife, serving as silent, lethal guardians of their woods. In the endless war among the gith, a githzerai is encouraged to become a Soulknife when stealth is required against the githyanki foe.

As a Soulknife, your psionic abilities might have haunted you since you were a child, only revealing their full potential as you experienced the stress of adventure. Or you might have sought out a reclusive order of psychic adepts and spent years learning how to manifest your power.
No mention of Magic.

It ain't magic. It may -interact- with magic. It may even -create- magical effects. But it ain't magic itself.
 

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