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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I can live with the complexity, IF, points can be reused to cast a spell and oppositely, a slot can be reused to modify a spell.



Here is comparable situation regarding the multiclass Warlock/Sorcerer. The citation comes from stackexchange about 6 years ago. I am unsure whether players tend to like or dislike this multiclass situation.

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Question

Multiclass Warlock/Sorcerer: How do spell slots recover?


If you multiclass a Warlock and a Sorcerer, then you have a character with both the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features.

PHB Page 101, Sorcerer, Spellcasting, Spell Slots:
You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

PHB Page 107, Warlock, Pact Magic, Spell Slots:
You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.

PHB Page 165, Customization Options, Multiclassing, Class Features:
Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.


Do the spell slots keep their previous method of recovery (sorcerer slots long rest, warlock slots any rest), or do they all act consistently as I am led to believe from the language of the multiclass section? Do they all recover only from long rests as per the sorcerer feature, or can they all be recovered with a short rest because the warlock feature says so?
Your spell slots recover based on the class feature that allows your spellcasting.

Answer

The language in the multiclassing section only mentions how you cast spells, not how you recover them. Note that recovery isn't mentioned at all in that paragraph. The spell slots are interchangeable when you're casting, but they recover based on their own mechanics. Unlike spell slots from multiple classes with Spellcasting, they don't merge into one pool; they remain separate except when you're actually casting out of them.

As a Warlock/Sorcerer, you have both the Pact Magic feature and the Spellcasting feature, which recover spell slots separately. Pact Magic slots recover on any rest, and Spellcasting slots recover on a long rest.

Other Answer

The key point is that Warlocks don't have Spellcasting at all. They have Pact Magic. Despite sharing a lot of similar terminology - spells, spell levels, etc - they are different abilities with different rules. The multi-classing rules present a bridge between them, but they're still different abilities.

Question

I think this might be related: Is it possible to “charge up” a sorcerer/warlock by taking multiple short rests?

Answer

I would like to point something out on page 164 of PHB, in regards to this question:

Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels if you have the [...] features.

Note that Warlock is not listed. You do not add Warlock spell slots to other spellcasting classes to achieve a total as per the chart on page 165 PHB. You keep them separate. Thus specifically your Warlock slots are the only short rest recharged slots. Maybe that'll ease some confusion, and happy gaming.

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As such, it seems that the Psion will be in the same multiclassing situation that the Warlock is in.

I am unsure if this is ok or problematic.

Note spells of slots 6 to 9 dont use spell points, so it seems both the Sorcerer and Warlock ... and Wizard and Psion ... could use each others slots for these levels, as is normal for the Spellcasting feature.
I don't mind it. The warlock slots won't be able to stack with the other caster in the same way, allowing higher level slots, but it does allow up to an additional 4 level 5 spells, 4 level 4 spells or whatever combination you want. That's pretty hefty. And you can use those warlock slots that come back with a short rest, so if you do it right, you can use your psionic abilities and wizard/cleric/sorcerer/whatever spells with only warlock slots and get them back.
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
That reminds me.

Traditionally, the Psion uses Intelligence as the key ability.

But I prefer the player to choose a key mental ability during character creation.

• Charisma is manifesting ones own force of personality, including magically.
• Intelligence is memory, analysis, and intuition.
• Wisdom is awkward, but as sensory perception and willpower, both apply.

Really, any of the mental abilities are suitable for psychic powers.

I almost want to say:

• Shapeshift/Healing archetype (Charisma)
• Divination/Teleportation archetype (Wisdom)
• Telekinesis/Fly/Force archetype (Intelligence)
• Telepathy/Charm/Illusion archetype (Any)

But once one chooses a key mental ability, one uses it for every Psion spell, regardless of spell’s discipline.
 

Tbh I like points and spell slots together, because it gives me variety. I feel that the Psion/Psychic/Mystic should be a class with some diversity in the mechanics, while still being streamlined to stay in line with 5E expectations.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That reminds me.

Traditionally, the Psion uses Intelligence as the key ability.

But I prefer the player to choose a key mental ability during character creation.

• Charisma is manifesting ones own force of personality, including magically.
• Intelligence is memory, analysis, and intuition.
• Wisdom is awkward, but as sensory perception and willpower, both apply.
Really, any of the mental abilities are suitable for psychic powers.

I almost want to say:

• Shapeshift/Healing archetype (Charisma)
• Divination/Teleportation archetype (Wisdom)
• Telekinesis/Fly/Force archetype (Intelligence)
• Telepathy/Charm/Illusion archetype (Any)

But once one chooses a key mental ability, one uses it for every Psion spell, regardless of spell’s discipline.


One of the things I really liked about the 2e version of psionics, was that the abilities keyed off of different stats, depending on what makes sense. I could see different disciplines requiring wisdom(divination), charisma(telepathy/charm), intelligence(telekinesis) and constitution(shapeshifting/healing). Very like your list. The only difference is that I would not change what the powers key off of. I think Psions should specialize in a discipline and the few powers they get outside of that would work off of the lesser stat.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
How about keeping Wizard Spell Slots and Psionic Power Points just... separate?

Can't sacrifice Wizard Slots for Power Points because it represents external power. Can't turn Power Points into Spell Slots because it represents internal power.

Pow. You've now created a big line of separation between magic (Which is -entirely- interchangeable) and psionics (which are only internally interchangeable).
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I think the point was to use the Warlock chassis (short-rest recharge and Invocations) to make a new class, not just reskin a Warlock.

I know that's what Kibblestasty's Psion does, although it uses a small pool of SR recharge spell points instead of spell slots. It's certainly my favorite homebrew take on a 5e psion.
This just became my favorite Psion, ever. Holy naughty word. I love it.

Psionic Talents for diversification? All the Powers are in Disciplines? Every power is basically a Cantrip and you get to buff the naughty word out of it meaning you have an array of low-power effects you can whip out at any time? You get "Free Power Points" for cantrip-upcasting based on your level? Your Upcasting is not limited to damage values but also affects things like area? ABSOLUTE WIN. Best design I've seen since 2e!

Little annoyed they went with the "Psionics is totally magic, you guys, and anything that stops magic stops psionics" but I can houserule that out at my table, of course.
 

ChaosOS

Legend
This just became my favorite Psion, ever. Holy naughty word. I love it.

Psionic Talents for diversification? All the Powers are in Disciplines? Every power is basically a Cantrip and you get to buff the naughty word out of it meaning you have an array of low-power effects you can whip out at any time? You get "Free Power Points" for cantrip-upcasting based on your level? Your Upcasting is not limited to damage values but also affects things like area? ABSOLUTE WIN. Best design I've seen since 2e!

Little annoyed they went with the "Psionics is totally magic, you guys, and anything that stops magic stops psionics" but I can houserule that out at my table, of course.
I like Kibbles as well, even if I have some minor quibbles about specific designs. But psionics-magic transparency is actually a really good thing, because you want people to be able to interact with each other. Arcane and Divine spellcasters both interact just fine, making psionics something special and different just exacerbates frustrations with it not being a core system.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
How about keeping Wizard Spell Slots and Psionic Power Points just... separate?

Can't sacrifice Wizard Slots for Power Points because it represents external power. Can't turn Power Points into Spell Slots because it represents internal power.

Pow. You've now created a big line of separation between magic (Which is -entirely- interchangeable) and psionics (which are only internally interchangeable).
You can't really keep them separate, because if you do then you really weaken the PC. Multiclassing becomes really bad at that point compared to other combinations.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I like Kibbles as well, even if I have some minor quibbles about specific designs. But psionics-magic transparency is actually a really good thing, because you want people to be able to interact with each other. Arcane and Divine spellcasters both interact just fine, making psionics something special and different just exacerbates frustrations with it not being a core system.
Kibbles quibbles? :p

For my games, I went with a combination of the two. There was intermixing, but they were different enough that there was a -4 penalty to PR/SR(this was in 3e) and it was a bit tougher for one to dispel the other.
 


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