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[TwoSix]

I know the DMG system makes spell points super-unfriendly to use.

But is there a way to simplify the spellpoint system, so that players can easily swap back and forth between slots and points, according to preference?

The spell point system is simpler. 1 point per level (like ki points or sorcery points), and spells cost 1 point per level. You can only spend a number of psi points per action equal to half your psion level (round up).

 

[Yaarel]

Off hand what I would do is make a spell slot for the spell itself and then have a greater ability that can be accessed if you use points. Kind of like the metamagic ability, but not just simple extensions. Like charm working on people, but with a 1 point investment, working on X monster types, and with a 3 point investment, working on X and Y monster types. The points would not come back until after a long rest.

To be fair, I am less of a fan of how the design of the Sorcerer metamagic points works.

For the Psion spells of slots 6 thru 9, there will be no spell points. Like how the Warlock "arcanum" works, there is only one spell per level, and each one can only be cast once per day.

However, the two Warlock slots that recharge per short rest, have a slot level, and for players who want, they could convert these into points.

So really, we are talking about spells of slots 0 to 5, using slots or points, and recharging per short rest.

Notice, low level spells tend to be powerful, while higher level spells tend to be disappointing. So it moreorless balances to simply say, for slots 0 to 5:

points = slot + 1

So a slot 3 spell, like Fly, costs one slot 3 or else 4 points.



Notice that a cantrip costs 1 point. Meaning. The Psion will choose several cantrips to cast at-will. However, the Psion could also spend 1 point to cast a different cantrip that the Psion doesnt know. Narratively, the Psion figures out how to cast any cantrip, intuitively.

 

[Yaarel]

Not exactly. See my last post. Using a higher slot usually just meant more of the same. Additional damage or maybe a few more targets. I'm talking about modifying the spell a bit to make it a more powerful version that encompasses more, not just more of the same narrow focus.

No problem. It is the spell description itself that tells the player what the spell can do, and if it can augment.

 

[Maxperson]

No problem. It is the spell description itself that tells the player what the spell can do, and if it can augment.

I understand Usually, though, the spell augment is just more of the same narrow focus. My vision is a widening of the scope or even modification into a more powerful version, like the 3e psionic abilities could. That's different enough to warrant spell point augments in my opinion. It would also line up better with how 5e does things.

 

[Yaarel]

I understand Usually, though, the spell augment is just more of the same narrow focus. My vision is a widening of the scope or even modification into a more powerful version, like the 3e psionic abilities could. That's different enough to warrant spell point augments in my opinion. It would also line up better with how 5e does things.

I think I understand what you are saying. Give me an example?

 

[Yaarel]

Note, it is a must that the Psion uses normal mechanics.

So for example. A multiclass Psion/Wizard should have a clear and easy way to convert Wizard slots into Psion points, and visaversa.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I am too used to the power psionic point system to change it now. But they can be too powerful because if they don't verbal, nor somatic neither material components then they could use in the middle of a room full of people and nobody would notice. DMs with experience designing stealth missins and gamers who have played Metal Gear or Assasin's Creed could notice those powers could break the balance.

I don't mind the sorcerer with power points as alternate house rule.

Some players could ask a psionic version of metamagic feats.

And the psionic powers should be designed to can be used in sci-fi games without mythological magic.

 

[Yaarel]

Whatever way 5e handles a spell-like ability, psionics works the same way.

Maybe noticing a Psion who is stealthily casting or a Fey who is stealthily casting some other spell-like ability (like Charm), is a Passive Arcana skill check?

But If I remember correctly, the rules say (or Crawford clarified), the target of a spell always knows exactly what the spell is and what it did.

So there is no stealth versus a target, but there might be stealth versus other onlookers.

 

[Maxperson]

I think I understand what you are saying. Give me an example?

Sure. Just as an arbitrary example. Conjure minor elementals is a 4th level spell. Conjure elemental is a 5th level spell. Conjure animals is 3rd level. Conjure 6th level. Suppose the Psion could use his mind to yank creatures from their homes(conjuring them). He might be able to do animals as a 3rd level spell. With the addition of 2 points, he could conjure minor elementals. With an addition of 4 points he could conjure elemental. And with 6 he could conjure fey. He doesn't need to do all of them. To get a fey he would not have to also invest the other 6 points.

Note: I don't think these conjurings fit the Psion. I was just using the grouping as an example of how a power could be modified to widen the scope and do different things that are not simply casting the same spell at a higher level.

Note, it is a must that the Psion uses normal mechanics.

So for example. A multiclass Psion/Wizard should have a clear and easy way to convert Wizard slots into Psion points, and visaversa.

That's why I'm suggesting that the spells be slots and the points be modifiers. If you do it that way, you don't have the added complexity and worry of having to convert slots into points and vice versa.

 

[Yaarel]

That's why I'm suggesting that the spells be slots and the points be modifiers. If you do it that way, you don't have the added complexity and worry of having to convert slots into points and vice versa.

I can live with the complexity, IF, points can be reused to cast a spell and oppositely, a slot can be reused to modify a spell.



Here is comparable situation regarding the multiclass Warlock/Sorcerer. The citation comes from stackexchange about 6 years ago. I am unsure whether players tend to like or dislike this multiclass situation.

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Question

Multiclass Warlock/Sorcerer: How do spell slots recover?

If you multiclass a Warlock and a Sorcerer, then you have a character with both the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features.

PHB Page 101, Sorcerer, Spellcasting, Spell Slots:
You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

PHB Page 107, Warlock, Pact Magic, Spell Slots:
You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.

PHB Page 165, Customization Options, Multiclassing, Class Features:
Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

Do the spell slots keep their previous method of recovery (sorcerer slots long rest, warlock slots any rest), or do they all act consistently as I am led to believe from the language of the multiclass section? Do they all recover only from long rests as per the sorcerer feature, or can they all be recovered with a short rest because the warlock feature says so?
Your spell slots recover based on the class feature that allows your spellcasting.

Answer

The language in the multiclassing section only mentions how you cast spells, not how you recover them. Note that recovery isn't mentioned at all in that paragraph. The spell slots are interchangeable when you're casting, but they recover based on their own mechanics. Unlike spell slots from multiple classes with Spellcasting, they don't merge into one pool; they remain separate except when you're actually casting out of them.

As a Warlock/Sorcerer, you have both the Pact Magic feature and the Spellcasting feature, which recover spell slots separately. Pact Magic slots recover on any rest, and Spellcasting slots recover on a long rest.

Other Answer

The key point is that Warlocks don't have Spellcasting at all. They have Pact Magic. Despite sharing a lot of similar terminology - spells, spell levels, etc - they are different abilities with different rules. The multi-classing rules present a bridge between them, but they're still different abilities.

Question

I think this might be related: Is it possible to “charge up” a sorcerer/warlock by taking multiple short rests?

Answer

I would like to point something out on page 164 of PHB, in regards to this question:

Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels if you have the [...] features.

Note that Warlock is not listed. You do not add Warlock spell slots to other spellcasting classes to achieve a total as per the chart on page 165 PHB. You keep them separate. Thus specifically your Warlock slots are the only short rest recharged slots. Maybe that'll ease some confusion, and happy gaming.

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As such, it seems that the Psion will be in the same multiclassing situation that the Warlock is in.

I am unsure if this is ok or problematic.

Note spells of slots 6 to 9 dont use spell points, so it seems both the Sorcerer and Warlock ... and Wizard and Psion ... could use each others slots for these levels, as is normal for the Spellcasting feature.