OSR Is there room in modern gaming for the OSR to bring in new gamers?

[Imaro]

I disagree. Ken is making a perfectly reasonable demandingness objection.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Politics of people aside (and off-topic and against the rules for this forum), I don't think that's the main issue. It's not like the 8,000 gorilla of the industry doesn't have it's own issues there.

Even ignoring such things, there's a general grognardism to the way OSR is presented - it reads as a reaction to modern gaming as if the modern style is bad, because it's a reaction to modern gaming by people who want a different kind of fun. Many new gamers kinda enjoy modern games, though, so an anti-modern pitch is going to fail. One fundamental rule of sales is never tell a potential customer they made a bad buying decision, (or even imply it) it just makes them defensive. Just tell them why your product is good, let them realize it's better on their own.

If you're trying to sell OSR books, you need to focus on what your game does that DnD doesn't do.

 

[Imaro]

Politics of people aside (and off-topic and against the rules for this forum), I don't think that's the main issue. It's not like the 8,000 gorilla of the industry doesn't have it's own issues there.

See and this right here is one of the issues... Those being called out in the OSR aren't apologetic or trying to be better and the fans of the OSR give the impression that they just want minorities to ignore it and act like it's not there... sorry but that mentality is not going to fly with many in this day and age...

As for the 8,000 lb gorilla, WotC at least is giving the appearance that it is concerned about and trying to get better at problematic politics and representation in its game.

 

[Haffrung]

Even ignoring such things, there's a general grognardism to the way OSR is presented - it reads as a reaction to modern gaming as if the modern style is bad, because it's a reaction to modern gaming by people who want a different kind of fun. Many new gamers kinda enjoy modern games, though, so an anti-modern pitch is going to fail. One fundamental rule of sales is never tell a potential customer they made a bad buying decision, (or even imply it) it just makes them defensive. Just tell them why your product is good, let them realize it's better on their own.

I disagree that reacting against modern gaming sensibilities will turn all newer gamers away. It might not appeal to most new gamers, but like all retro cultural movements, it will appeal to some.

The whole hipster ethos is a rejection of what’s regarded as superficial or debased modern culture in favour of the more authentic sensibilities of an earlier era. You’ll find lots of young enthusiasts today who worship Kubrick, listen to Fleetwood Mac on vinyl, and collect reprints of golden age comics.

In recent years the OSR is leaning into avant-garde and gonzo aesthetics, which has enhanced its appeal beyond long-time grognards. Hold up Mork Borg and Ultraviolet Grasslands one one hand, and Volo’s Guide to Monsters and the Pathfinder Lost Omens Guide on the other, and tell me which books a cultural maven will say seem more cutting edge and creative.

Simple, retro mechanics presented with modern graphic design sensibilities is a potent combination. Old School Essentials has revitalized the old B/X system and sparked a host of compatible material, just by modernizing the look and usability of the rules. The OSR will always be niche, but that niche appeals to more than just grognards.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I backed the Mork Borg KS, and I really wanted to back the UVG KS (but finances were a little tight at the time, so I couldn't justify it).

However, if you look at either of those KS, they don't define themselves by contrasting with modern games. They just tell folks what's awesome about their game (MB does briefly contrast itself with the OSR, but that's more about managing expectations).

These are two OSR games that are doing things the right way. They don't care about what anyone else is doing; they just care about producing an awesome game and it shows that they believe that their games stand on their own merits. WWN is a third OSR game that I think belongs in this category.

 

[Alzrius]

I disagree that reacting against modern gaming sensibilities will turn all newer gamers away. It might not appeal to most new gamers, but like all retro cultural movements, it will appeal to some.

I wonder to what extent it might appeal to new players who, after some time, cease to be all that new and begin looking for a change.

 

[Democratus]

Lizard Kings? Is there a new one? I'm only finding Tomb of the Lizard King as an 80s TSR module.

Arg. You're right.

It's "Tomb of the Serpent Kings".

 

[Sacrosanct]

Politics of people aside (and off-topic and against the rules for this forum), I don't think that's the main issue. It's not like the 8,000 gorilla of the industry doesn't have it's own issues there.

Even ignoring such things, there's a general grognardism to the way OSR is presented - it reads as a reaction to modern gaming as if the modern style is bad, because it's a reaction to modern gaming by people who want a different kind of fun. Many new gamers kinda enjoy modern games, though, so an anti-modern pitch is going to fail. One fundamental rule of sales is never tell a potential customer they made a bad buying decision, (or even imply it) it just makes them defensive. Just tell them why your product is good, let them realize it's better on their own.

If you're trying to sell OSR books, you need to focus on what your game does that DnD doesn't do.

I don’t think many of the OSR games reject modern game design as much as it seems like you’re making it to be. For example, many of the big OSR games have things like ascending AC and other more modern sensibilities.

In my own OSR game that’s launching soon, even ignoring aesthetic and presentation, mechanically it includes modern sensibilities such as:

ascending ac
Ancestries instead of race
No dead levels
Intelligent humanoids do not have default alignments.

So OSR doesn’t necessarily mean a reaction to portray modern gaming as bad, but as an alternative to modern gaming in SOME ways, marrying old school feel of play with modern lessons learned.

 

[Umbran]

I disagree. Ken is making a perfectly reasonable demandingness objection.

Mod Note:

Do remember that we have an inclusivity policy before you continue supporting such positions.

 

[Haffrung]

I wonder to what extent it might appeal to new players who, after some time, cease to be all that new and begin looking for a change.

To quite a large extent. We see this happen with a great many cultural scenes. People are new to a music genre or school of fiction. They love it. But eventually they exhaust or get bored of the popular mainstream stuff. This inspires them to delve deeper into alternative and less-known sub-genres. One of those alternatives is always the roots of the genre.