D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[Aldarc]

Admitting that the Bladesinger already does what you want isn't a push for a new class

I don't recall saying anthing like that. Are you inventing positions for me? Or am I just being lumped in with everyone else because it's more convenient for your argument?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I was thinking that merge with Deathstroke and some other things to get it all flowing together.

I had to look up who Deathstroke is.

 

[grimslade]

The problem is people don't want a gish. They want a fighter/mage that is comparable to their single-class fellows. It can't be as good as a wizard and a fighter at the same time. So we need to find the gestalt a bit better than Eldritch Knight (too fighter-y) or Bladesinger (too wizardy).
I was looking through my notes from the beginning of 5E and how to fix the Pact of the Blade Warlock. In 3E, the warlock could convert his Eldritch Blast into an Eldritch Glaive and be all melee with it. The Blade-lock has no incentive to swing his weapon over EB because, mechanically, it is inferior. Why not make a melee-only version of the Eldritch Blast cantrip? Grant the class no extra attack ability, just follow the scaling of cantrips. Or don't make it an actual cantrip but a class ability that scales with class level. No dipping shenanigans. Add some riders, like the invocations for warlocks, call them sword forms, to get caster stat bonus to damage, knock prone, add bonus to AC. Give them 1/2 caster progression and the wizard spell list. Or curate a custom spell list.
So you have a class that can summon a magical blade to fight with like a fighter one round and drop a fireball the next. A true fighter will be a better melee combatant but the spellsword or stabnerd can be a real threat.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Personally I think that a melee focused Bladesinger, built around the blade cantrips pretty much does the job. All it really needs are a first, second and third level spell that are keyed off or melee attack connecting would do the trick. Alternatively a spell that allowed movement not triggering OA's but requiring the making of a melee attack would also lean into the flavour.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

The problem is people don't want a gish. They want a fighter/mage that is comparable to their single-class fellows. It can't be as good as a wizard and a fighter at the same time. So we need to find the gestalt a bit better than Eldritch Knight (too fighter-y) or Bladesinger (too wizardy).
I was looking through my notes from the beginning of 5E and how to fix the Pact of the Blade Warlock. In 3E, the warlock could convert his Eldritch Blast into an Eldritch Glaive and be all melee with it. The Blade-lock has no incentive to swing his weapon over EB because, mechanically, it is inferior. Why not make a melee-only version of the Eldritch Blast cantrip? Grant the class no extra attack ability, just follow the scaling of cantrips. Or don't make it an actual cantrip but a class ability that scales with class level. No dipping shenanigans. Add some riders, like the invocations for warlocks, call them sword forms, to get caster stat bonus to damage, knock prone, add bonus to AC. Give them 1/2 caster progression and the wizard spell list. Or curate a custom spell list.
So you have a class that can summon a magical blade to fight with like a fighter one round and drop a fireball the next. A true fighter will be a better melee combatant but the spellsword or stabnerd can be a real threat.

My initial reaction was against that, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

Things like the swordmage in 4e had the swordbond, which has been ported to eldritch knight, so obviously that's out. But actually creating a magic weapon which scales like a cantrip instead of extra attack is very interesting, and also unique mechanically. Imo it should still be compatible with spells like searing smite and ensnaring strike, as those replicate spellstrike very well. Definitely scale with class level too, as otherwise it sounds like a dipping disaster.

There was also a mention of an 'unarmoured defence' several posts back like monk and barbarian. When not wearing armour, you can make up a limited amount of AC. Not as powerful as those though, as both those classes have additional abilities which don't work with armour.

Being able to choose the weapon rather than just one weapon type would be cool too.

Definitely a half caster custom spell list like paladin and ranger. Bladesinger and Eldritch Knight ride on the wizard list, and it's one of the main reasons people are unhappy with them.

I don't think 'blaster' spells like fireball should be available to an arcane gish. If they want to fight ranged, they should be using weapons. Paladin and Ranger don't have access to the blaster spells of druid and cleric.

All the gishes from other editions were d8 hit die, which I think should remain. They're not tanks in the same way that paladins and fighter are. They're meant to get in and out of the combat.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Personally I think that a melee focused Bladesinger, built around the blade cantrips pretty much does the job. All it really needs are a first, second and third level spell that are keyed off or melee attack connecting would do the trick. Alternatively a spell that allowed movement not triggering OA's but requiring the making of a melee attack would also lean into the flavour.

I mean that would work fine. If it had access to the right spells.

Trouble is it doesn't which is why we're here.

 

[Bolares]

I like the idea of a gish with a unique identity. I don't think that necessarily ought to preclude more customized options via multiclassing, but I do appreciate the cohesive approach that derives from having a dedicated class.

Personally, my favorite gish was the swordmage. The name perhaps left something to be desired, but I found the implemention very enjoyable to play. It was probably my favorite 4e class.

I loooooved the assault sowrdmage. it was probably the worst of the sowrdmages, but teleporting everywhere was so cool!

 

[jgsugden]

If we're trying to find an identity for the gish, wouldn't a good first step be to identify a number of characters from movie, tv, books and other fiction that embody the target concept? Do we have such a list?

 

[FrogReaver]

I'd start by asking what's wrong with the EK?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I'd start by asking what's wrong with the EK?

It lacks any of the signature class abilities which made arcane gishes fun in other editions and pathfinder. Those classes were based around applying magical effects via weapon attacks. Apart from two cantrips, EK and Bladesinger can't do that. In prior editions and pathfinder, there were dozens of effects that could be inflicted.

Eldritch Knight would be fine if it wasn't tied to the wizard list, and instead had its own spell list which included the weapon attack spells like searing smite and ensnaring strike.

It's like removing a barbarians rage, or a paladins smite. Sure you could make a fighter subclass with the same theme. But without those core abilities, it will never feel like playing a barbarian or paladin.