D&D General can we make better dragons?

[Steampunkette]

I am more familiar with that sort but they become less necessary also it does not explain the treasure.

What Treasure?

If someone kills a Wight Dragon of the Ashen Lands there's no lair full of coins and precious artwork and magic items carefully hoarded... But they'll be paid handsomely for their efforts and the corpse can be sold off at premium prices based on it's age, size, and health before it was snuffed out.

There's only one type of Dragon that I've homebrewed that collects things, and it's less of a "Hoarder of important things" and more of a Scaled Jackdaw. Gilded Dragons. They only ever get to moose-size and they line their nests with shiny objects to attract mates and food. Their lairs are generally in pretty open areas where dragons flying past will see them. Meadows are a favorite, but also cliffsides on the -south- wall of a mountain in Northern Climes and -north- wall in southern climes. More sunlight means more glinting shinies to attract mates.

 

[dave2008]

I do not have copies of such books.

You can buy the PDF's on DMs Guild:

Draconomicon 3.5e
Draconomicon 4e - vol 1, Chromatic Dragons
Draconomicon 4e - vol 2. Metallic Dragons

Sorry. I don't have the time to tell you about all the cool ideas on those books, but I think it has most of what you are looking for. Of course if you wait a bit a lot of people think we will be getting something like the 5e version of the Draconomicon this year.

EDIT: There is even a 3PP version for 5e on DMsGuild: Draconomicon 5e

 

[Vaalingrade]

Generally speaking I try to avoid Intelligent Dragons altogether.

While I prefer sapient dragons, it might be fore the best given how the game wants you to Buffalo Bill them for parts to increase your power.

 

[dave2008]

As a little preview, here is the story of the gold dragon Valamaradace from the 4e Draconomicon v2. One of the shorty entries in the book.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

My campaign only has chromatic dragons, but are the major bad guys of the campaigns.

Each color more or less cooperates with their own color, and work as colonial powers, trying to take over the continent they are on. I the biggest thing stopping them is that the five colors are locked in a cold war scheming and if any were to overextend, the others would see the weakness and attack.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I believe @Mind of tempest is talking about lore and stories, not mechanics.

He possibly was talking about stories, with 4e having lots of good lore (there are from memory three named dragons each integrated into the setting in Monster Vault: threats to the Nentir Vale) and on preview has given examples from the Draconomicon v2, but 4e dragons were also far far mechanically far more interesting than 5e ones. Below's the 4e Monster Vault Young Black Dragon - which can be compared to the 5e Young Black Dragon or even Adult Black Dragon on D&D Beyond.

The 5e Young Black Dragon is a bit of a pathetic thing; it basically only has a claw/claw/bite routine and can fly, swim, and breathe acid. It's little difference from an acid-breathing roc or the like - and there will be some fights where the dragon doesn't even get to breathe anything. The adult black is better - it at least has legendary resistances and its multiattack routine includes dragonfear. It also gets to tail lash or wing attack or spot things as a legendary action. (That's one lashing tail). It at least is more than a firebreathing roc that sometimes swims - and the only major things that make it mechanically a black dragon are that it swims and what it breathes.

Meanwhile looking at the 4e young black? It's both terrifying and very distinctively a black dragon.

• It breathes every fight; when it's bloodied (down to half hp) it gets a free breath attack. No reskinned rocs here.
• Its breath attack isn't just damage; it covers people in acid, doing ongoing damage. (Red is higher damage, white slows, blue is bouncing lightning to three targets)
• Its bite has overtones of its breath attack because it comes from the same throat. If you're bitten by an acid breathing dragon you get some acid over you.
• It (uniquely) has acidic blood that splashes all over anyone who hurts it when it's bloodied; the blue dragon for example doesn't do this but gets a lightning aura instead when bloodied while the red doesn't get anything.
• It gets Instinctive Devouring; all the 4e Monster Vault dragons have this terrifying extra action but what it is varies by dragon type; the black bites, the white rampages, the blue backs off and lightnings.
• It has the Shroud of Gloom leading to high AoE burst damage from the breath. Each dragon colour gets one special ability this way at young; the green gets a luring glare, the blue gets a lightning blast, the green a Flyby Attack
• Its tail attack is distinct from the red's tail attack, the white's tail slap, the blue's wing backblast, and the green's absolutely nothing (when young) or reactive enchantments (for older ones).
• It shrugs off the nasty debilitating effects on it because it's a dragon and almost unstoppable (Action Recovery) rather than just a generic Legendary Resistance.

5e uses lighter combat mechanics than 4e and some of that (like different tail attacks with different triggers for different dragon types) feels like gilding the lily to me. But taking on a 4e dragon of any size is a very different proposition from taking on a roc with halitosis and taking on two dragons of different colours is a very different experience rather than simply a dragon painted a different colour and with a different breath attack that they might not use.

 

[dave2008]

He possibly was talking about stories, with 4e having lots of good lore (there are from memory three named dragons each integrated into the setting in Monster Vault: threats to the Nentir Vale) and on preview has given examples from the Draconomicon v2,

yes, that was my post

but 4e dragons were also far far mechanically far more interesting than 5e ones. Below's the 4e Monster Vault Young Black Dragon - which can be compared to the 5e Young Black Dragon or even Adult Black Dragon on D&D Beyond.
View attachment 140235

The 5e Young Black Dragon is a bit of a pathetic thing; it basically only has a claw/claw/bite routine and can fly, swim, and breathe acid. It's little difference from an acid-breathing roc or the like - and there will be some fights where the dragon doesn't even get to breathe anything. The adult black is better - it at least has legendary resistances and its multiattack routine includes dragonfear. It also gets to tail lash or wing attack or spot things as a legendary action. (That's one lashing tail). It at least is more than a firebreathing roc that sometimes swims - and the only major things that make it mechanically a black dragon are that it swims and what it breathes.

Meanwhile looking at the 4e young black? It's both terrifying and very distinctively a black dragon.

• It breathes every fight; when it's bloodied (down to half hp) it gets a free breath attack. No reskinned rocs here.
• Its breath attack isn't just damage; it covers people in acid, doing ongoing damage. (Red is higher damage, white slows, blue is bouncing lightning to three targets)
• Its bite has overtones of its breath attack because it comes from the same throat. If you're bitten by an acid breathing dragon you get some acid over you.
• It (uniquely) has acidic blood that splashes all over anyone who hurts it when it's bloodied; the blue dragon for example doesn't do this but gets a lightning aura instead when bloodied while the red doesn't get anything.
• It gets Instinctive Devouring; all the 4e Monster Vault dragons have this terrifying extra action but what it is varies by dragon type; the black bites, the white rampages, the blue backs off and lightnings.
• It has the Shroud of Gloom leading to high AoE burst damage from the breath. Each dragon colour gets one special ability this way at young; the green gets a luring glare, the blue gets a lightning blast, the green a Flyby Attack
• Its tail attack is distinct from the red's tail attack, the white's tail slap, the blue's wing backblast, and the green's absolutely nothing (when young) or reactive enchantments (for older ones).
• It shrugs off the nasty debilitating effects on it because it's a dragon and almost unstoppable (Action Recovery) rather than just a generic Legendary Resistance.

5e uses lighter combat mechanics than 4e and some of that (like different tail attacks with different triggers for different dragon types) feels like gilding the lily to me. But taking on a 4e dragon of any size is a very different proposition from taking on a roc with halitosis and taking on two dragons of different colours is a very different experience rather than simply a dragon painted a different colour and with a different breath attack that they might not use.

I am pretty sure the OP is not asking about mechanics. However,...

I personally don't think 4e dragons are that much better than the 5e counter parts, in particular Adult and Ancient 5e dragons with legendary and lair actions. For me, a 5e dragon with its lair actions is more interesting than most 4e dragons. Now, I agree the the 5e stat blocks are too cookie cutter for me an could use the variety they put in the 4e ones. They unfortunately shifted a lot of that to they lair actions (which is why I let dragons use lair actions even if they are not in their lair). There is also the prevalence of push, pull, and other effects and conditions that all 4e monsters seem to have an few 5e ones have. I also think legendary actions and resistance are a better solution for solos than what is in the 4e MM. Now 4e improved on this for dragons when they added "instinctive actions" later in the edition (around MM 3 and the Monster Vault).

Similarly, I will note that you chose to post a stat block that was not from the 4e MM, but a latter version after they had redesigned the dragons. If you look at later monster designs in 5e, they tend to be more interesting too.

If your curious, here is the black dragon in the 4e MM:

EDIT: you will note the original MM version does not have: acidic blood, instinctive devouring, or action recovery. Also, zone of darkness is not as interesting (mechanically) as shroud of gloom in the MV version. My point is the design got better when the did it a second time. If and when this happens for 5e, I bet they are similarly improved (though probably not the young dragon so much, more the higher CR ones).

EDIT #2: I just want to clarify that I love 4e and ran for its whole run. It is the game that brought me back to D&D. However, in general I am not overly impressed with 4e or 5e dragons in their respective MM. The 4e dragons definitely got better as time when on. If you want to see my take on 5e dragons, check out my 5e Monstrous Compendium on this forum. I've updated all of the chromatic dragons and added a few age categories.

 

[Neonchameleon]

yes, that was my post

I am pretty sure the OP is not asking about mechanics. However,...

I personally don't think 4e dragons are that much better than the 5e counter parts, in particular Adult and Ancient 5e dragons with legendary and lair actions. For me, a 5e dragon with its lair actions is more interesting than most 4e dragons. Now, I agree the the 5e stat blocks are too cookie cutter for me an could use the variety they put in the 4e ones. They unfortunately shifted a lot of that to they lair actions (which is why I let dragons use lair actions even if they are not in their lair). There is also the prevalence of push, pull, and other effects and conditions that all 4e monsters seem to have an few 5e ones have. I also think legendary actions and resistance are a better solution for solos than what is in the 4e MM. Now 4e improved on this for dragons when they added "instinctive actions" later in the edition (around MM 3 and the Monster Vault).

The thing is that the legendary editions for 5e dragons are almost all the same (3 actions, spend 1 for a perception check, spend 1 for a tail attack, spend 2 for an AoE wing buffet).

Similarly, I will note that you chose to post a stat block that was not from the 4e MM, but a latter version after they had redesigned the dragons. If you look at later
monster designs in 5e, they tend to be more interesting too.

Even the MM young black dragon you posted (cut for length) rather than the MV one I did has an acidic bite attack with ongoing acid, bloodied breath, a distinctive tail attack, and a cloud of darkness. Oh and frightful presence.

EDIT: you will note the original MM version does not have: acidic blood, instinctive devouring, or action recovery. Also, zone of darkness is not as interesting (mechanically) as shroud of gloom in the MV version. My point is the design got better when the did it a second time. If and when this happens for 5e, I bet they are similarly improved (though probably not the young dragon so much, more the higher CR ones).

You will also note that the 5e young black dragon does not have any sort of legendary actions or recoveries. Or even any sort of tail attack; without its lair actions (which I will note aren't a part of the statblock and find this a problem) . The lair actions for the 5e MM black dragon plus the legendaries of the adult black between them I'd say put it about up to the MM1 young black with its better bite, tail slash, bloodied breath, and cloud of darkness.

Also 5e is also about seven years old. It's a bit late in its lifespan to appeal for time.

 

[Quickleaf]

In my homebrew setting, dragons were lured into a magical sleep a long time ago and the landscape sort of merged and grew over them, so there are lots of locations that have "Draig" as a prefix or suffix, with associated mythology about what befell the dragon that once laired in the area. As part of their reawakening, there were dramatic changes that took place in the landscape, so a river might change course or drain down into underground caverns, a hill and its sacred standing stones might erupt, and burrowing lines might bisect a town cracking foundations and frightening people. Each dragon was a unique individual, usually somewhere in the elder - ancient - wyrm spectrum. When I ran the setting there were no wyrmlings or young dragons.

 

[dave2008]

First I want to point out that I said 4e dragons where better, just not much better IMO. I think they both have strengths and bonuses.

The thing is that the legendary editions for 5e dragons are almost all the same (3 actions, spend 1 for a perception check, spend 1 for a tail attack, spend 2 for an AoE wing buffet).

OH I agree, they missed a real opportunity there. That is why, as I mentioned before, I let dragons take lair actions at the cost of 1 legendary action. IMO that move alone makes 5e dragons at least equivalent to 4e dragons.

Even the MM young black dragon you posted (cut for length) rather than the MV one I did has an acidic bite attack with ongoing acid, bloodied breath, a distinctive tail attack, and a cloud of darkness. Oh and frightful presence.

You will also note that the 5e young black dragon does not have any sort of legendary actions or recoveries. Or even any sort of tail attack; without its lair actions (which I will note aren't a part of the statblock and find this a problem) . The lair actions for the 5e MM black dragon plus the legendaries of the adult black between them I'd say put it about up to the MM1 young black with its better bite, tail slash, bloodied breath, and cloud of darkness.

I personally never use any dragons below Adult and rarely even adult dragons. For me, Ancient dragons (elder dragons in 4e) are the youngest I typically have dragons in my campaigns. So when I talk about dragons, I almost always talking about ancient dragons (in 5e). So I completely agree that young dragons in 4e are much more interesting than their 5e equivalent. However, it is simply not relevant in my games.

Also 5e is also about seven years old. It's a bit late in its lifespan to appeal for time.

I was not making an appeal for time. I was just pointing out that monster designs tend to get better the more the design teams do. It took 4e designers 3 tries (MM1- MM3) to get solos close to what they should have been, That being said, I think Legendary monsters are even better at being solos than 4e solos. So that baseline, IME, gives 5e dragons a bit of an edge in play. Now, are 4e dragons more interesting on the page, absolutely. Now look at this later dragon from the Ravnica book:

Niv-Mizzet

Spoiler

Gargantuan dragon , chaotic neutral

Armor Class 22 Natural Armor
Hit Points 370 (19d20 + 171)
Speed 40 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 80 ft.

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
29 (+9)	14 (+2)	29 (+9)	30 (+10)	17 (+3)	25 (+7)

Saving Throws CON +17, INT +18, WIS +11
Skills Arcana +18, Insight +11, Perception +11
Damage Resistances Cold, Psychic, Thunder
Damage Immunities Fire, Lightning
Condition Immunities Charmed
Senses Blindsight 60 ft., Darkvision 120 ft., Passive Perception 21
Languages Common, Draconic
Challenge 26 (90,000 XP) Proficiency Bonus +8

Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If Niv-Mizzet fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.
Locus of the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet can maintain concentration on two different spells at the same time. In addition, he has advantage on saving throws to maintain concentration on spells.
Magic Resistance. Niv-Mizzet has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
Master Chemister. When Niv-Mizzet casts a spell that deals damage, he can change the spell’s damage to cold, fire, force, lightning, or thunder.
Spellcasting. Niv-Mizzet is a 20th-level Izzet spellcaster. His spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 26, +18 to hit with spell attacks). He has the following wizard spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): fire bolt, light, prestidigitation, ray of frost, shocking grasp
1st level (4 slots): detect magic, magic missile, shield, thunderwave, unseen servant
2nd level (3 slots): blur, enlarge/reduce, flaming sphere, scorching ray
3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, fireball, hold person, lightning bolt, slow
4th level (3 slots): confusion, dimension door, fabricate
5th level (2 slots): conjure elemental, polymorph, wall of fire, wall of force
6th level (1 slot): chain lightning, disintegrate, true seeing
7th level (1 slot): project image, reverse gravity, teleport
8th level (1 slot): control weather, maze, power word stun
9th level (1 slot): prismatic wall

Actions
Multiattack. Niv-Mizzet makes three attacks: one with his bite and two with his claws.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 18 (2d8 + 9) piercing damage plus 14 (4d6)fire damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 14 (2d4 + 9) slashing damage.
Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 16 (2d6 + 9) bludgeoning damage.
Fire Breath (Recharge 5–6). Niv-Mizzet exhales fire in a 90-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 91 (26d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Legendary Actions
Niv-Mizzet can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. Niv-Mizzet regains spent legendary actions at the start of his turn.

Cantrip. Niv-Mizzet casts one of his cantrips.
Tail Attack. Niv-Mizzet makes a tail attack.
Wing Attack (Costs 2 Actions). Niv-Mizzet beats his wings. Each creature within 15 feet of him must succeed on a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw or take 14 (2d4 + 9)bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. Niv-Mizzet can then fly up to half his flying speed.
Dracogenius (Costs 3 Actions). Niv-Mizzet regains a spell slot of 3rd level or lower.

This is better in but still not all they could be IMO. If you checked out my dragons you an see I pushed them quite a bit farther. I had few issues with 4e dragons (and solos in general).

1. Ongoing damage (and to a lesser extent conditions). When I played 4e I often forgot about ongoing damage and my players sure didn't remind me Now that is on me, but it became such a hassle I eventually dropped it from all my monsters and just upped the damage. I think 5e was wise to mostly drop it too. Which brings me too...
2. High level dragons did to little damage. This is also an issue with 5e, but it was worse in 4e. I eventually found a blog that reworked the 4e expected damage per level tables to make lvl 30 match lvl 1. That helped a lot.
3. No spells. I didn't mind this at first because of the unique abilities they have, but eventually I wanted a bit more. I like that 5e dragons have a spell casting variant RAW, though I do wish they had provided a sample spell list.