D&D General can we make better dragons?

[Neonchameleon]

Now, are 4e dragons more interesting on the page, absolutely. Now look at this later dragon from the Ravnica book:

Niv-Mizzet

Spoiler

Gargantuan dragon , chaotic neutral

Armor Class 22 Natural Armor
Hit Points 370 (19d20 + 171)
Speed 40 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 80 ft.

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
29 (+9)	14 (+2)	29 (+9)	30 (+10)	17 (+3)	25 (+7)

Saving Throws CON +17, INT +18, WIS +11
Skills Arcana +18, Insight +11, Perception +11
Damage Resistances Cold, Psychic, Thunder
Damage Immunities Fire, Lightning
Condition Immunities Charmed
Senses Blindsight 60 ft., Darkvision 120 ft., Passive Perception 21
Languages Common, Draconic
Challenge 26 (90,000 XP) Proficiency Bonus +8

Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If Niv-Mizzet fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.
Locus of the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet can maintain concentration on two different spells at the same time. In addition, he has advantage on saving throws to maintain concentration on spells.
Magic Resistance. Niv-Mizzet has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
Master Chemister. When Niv-Mizzet casts a spell that deals damage, he can change the spell’s damage to cold, fire, force, lightning, or thunder.
Spellcasting. Niv-Mizzet is a 20th-level Izzet spellcaster. His spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 26, +18 to hit with spell attacks). He has the following wizard spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): fire bolt, light, prestidigitation, ray of frost, shocking grasp
1st level (4 slots): detect magic, magic missile, shield, thunderwave, unseen servant
2nd level (3 slots): blur, enlarge/reduce, flaming sphere, scorching ray
3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, fireball, hold person, lightning bolt, slow
4th level (3 slots): confusion, dimension door, fabricate
5th level (2 slots): conjure elemental, polymorph, wall of fire, wall of force
6th level (1 slot): chain lightning, disintegrate, true seeing
7th level (1 slot): project image, reverse gravity, teleport
8th level (1 slot): control weather, maze, power word stun
9th level (1 slot): prismatic wall

Actions
Multiattack. Niv-Mizzet makes three attacks: one with his bite and two with his claws.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 18 (2d8 + 9) piercing damage plus 14 (4d6)fire damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 14 (2d4 + 9) slashing damage.
Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 16 (2d6 + 9) bludgeoning damage.
Fire Breath (Recharge 5–6). Niv-Mizzet exhales fire in a 90-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 91 (26d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Legendary Actions
Niv-Mizzet can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. Niv-Mizzet regains spent legendary actions at the start of his turn.

Cantrip. Niv-Mizzet casts one of his cantrips.
Tail Attack. Niv-Mizzet makes a tail attack.
Wing Attack (Costs 2 Actions). Niv-Mizzet beats his wings. Each creature within 15 feet of him must succeed on a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw or take 14 (2d4 + 9)bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. Niv-Mizzet can then fly up to half his flying speed.
Dracogenius (Costs 3 Actions). Niv-Mizzet regains a spell slot of 3rd level or lower.

This is better in but still not all they could be IMO.

I'm afraid I got half way through that statblock, threw up in my mouth a little, and decided that there wasn't a single chance of me ever using Niv-Mizzet while making it unlikely I'd even look at Ravnica.

The reason's simple. "Niv-Mizzet is a 20th-level Izzet spellcaster. ... He has the following wizard spells prepared..." No. Not only is a long spell list homogenising blandness, frequently overshadowing almost everything else they could do but it's a serious nuisance to prepare as GM and gives me far too much to juggle.

If you want a spellcaster give me a few combat spells - and put the combat effect into their statblock. And that would also allow him e.g. a personalized version of counterspell.

 

[jgsugden]

#1: Make all dragons spellcasting dragons. A few spells make them more distinct.

#2: Have dragons make use of their lairs, and have the lairs reflect their centuries of cunning and creation.

#3: Give them each a distinct personality. If the PCs meet a dragon, it should not just be 'a dragon'.... it should be an individual with goals, flaws, and interests.

#4: I give dragons unique abilities that relate to their history. If a Green dragon has used magic to infiltrate society and steal their riches for their treasure, they'll have special stealth and infiltration abilities and will try to use them. I might give an ancient dragon special maneuvers. 4E inspired a lot of this, an I steal from 4E a lot when doing things like this...

#5: Have them use their magical treasure items.

 

[Neonchameleon]

#1: Make all dragons spellcasting dragons. A few spells make them more distinct.

Dragons fighting with off-the-shelf spells make them more like prosthetic forehead aliens that use just the same abilities as everyone else. And having spells rather than abilities written in the statblock makes them harder to run.

#2: Have dragons make use of their lairs, and have the lairs reflect their centuries of cunning and creation.

2: Give them each a distinct personality. If the PCs meet a dragon, it should not just be 'a dragon'.... it should be an individual with goals, flaws, and interests.

#4: I give dragons unique abilities that relate to their history. If a Green dragon has used magic to infiltrate society and steal their riches for their treasure, they'll have special stealth and infiltration abilities and will try to use them. I might give an ancient dragon special maneuvers. 4E inspired a lot of this, an I steal from 4E a lot when doing things like this...

#5: Have them use their magical treasure items.

Agreed on all cases Make them actual beings in the setting.

 

[Tonguez]

aside from big monsters or the puppeteer of nations or some kinda rip off of Gandalf I have not seen anything done with dragons can they be better and more a focus without just becoming giant humans?

can we make gem dragons that have a setting point?

can we have less overlap of metallics in their LG corner?

can we have chromatic dragons who are more than set pieces but with grand goals, also where are the grey, orange, yellow and purple dragons?

Purple = Deep Dragons
Gray = Fang Dragon
Yellow = Toril Sand Dragon
Orange dragons exist too though Ive never seen one

 

[dave2008]

I'm afraid I got half way through that statblock, threw up in my mouth a little, and decided that there wasn't a single chance of me ever using Niv-Mizzet while making it unlikely I'd even look at Ravnica.

The reason's simple. "Niv-Mizzet is a 20th-level Izzet spellcaster. ... He has the following wizard spells prepared..." No. Not only is a long spell list homogenising blandness, frequently overshadowing almost everything else they could do but it's a serious nuisance to prepare as GM and gives me far too much to juggle.

If you want a spellcaster give me a few combat spells - and put the combat effect into their statblock. And that would also allow him e.g. a personalized version of counterspell.

Everyone has their issues. I got tired of the 4e approach of just having a few special powers. I prefer the current 5e approach of a list of a few innate spells, have one spell in the actions, and have some unique powers. I also prefer the flavor of having more spells (for spell casters) than just combat spells. Mind you, when I played 4e I said basically the opposite. But I am a convert to the spell list now.

PS. If you throwing up in your mouth from reading a stat block you might want to get that checked. Not sure if that would be physiological or psychological, but either way it can't be good.

 

[dave2008]

Dragons fighting with off-the-shelf spells make them more like prosthetic forehead aliens that use just the same abilities as everyone else. And having spells rather than abilities written in the statblock makes them harder to run.

There is a limit to what you can reasonably put into a stat block. That is the issue I ran into in 4e. I prefer the combo approach to have unique abilities / powers and a tailored spell list. In this way you can get everything you want in the stat block, with the caveat that you need to know the spells. For some DMs this is easy, for others it is hard. This will always be the superior method IMO; however, I will freely admit that WotC did not achieve this with their MM dragons. Fortunately it is really easy to get close with just a slight twist of RAW (let them use lair actions as legendary actions).

 

[Vaalingrade]

Put spellcasting dragons in the PH where most of their combat abilities come from.

 

[dave2008]

Put spellcasting dragons in the PH where most of their combat abilities come from.

What is the "PH" you are referencing?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Player's Handbook

 

[dave2008]

Player's Handbook

OK, that is normally abbreviated as PHB. However, I don't understand the logic of putting monsters in the PHB and not the MM, could you explain further?