D&D General Dungeon Master or Referee?

Bedrockgames · Jul 17, 2021

Burnside said:
Now, "fighter" is a stupid name. Person who fights. How did we end up with "fighter" instead of "warrior"?

How is fighter any worse than warrior? It isn't like they made up the term, fighter has just as much currency as warrior (probably more in serious conversation)

Charlaquin · Jul 17, 2021

Bedrockgames said:
To me it is quite the opposite, referee suggests you are not adversarial, but meant to be fair and impartial. I find thinking of myself as a referee actually helps me not to be adversarial, because it reminds me to listen openly to what the players are trying to do and really think about it without allowing any biases I might have to obstruct them (for example the bias of wanting them to just get to the dungeon or to deal with the interesting situation in the north of the city, or the bias of them not killing an NPC I like, etc).

It definitely suggests impartiality, and I can see why that appeals to a lot of folks. However, to me it also suggests a role of mediator of competition between players, which is something I don’t want in D&D.

Bedrockgames · Jul 17, 2021

Charlaquin said:
It definitely suggests impartiality, and I can see why that appeals to a lot of folks. However, to me it also suggests a role of mediator of competition between players, which is something I don’t want in D&D.

This is something I've never really encountered with people who use referee as a term. I actually do like player versus player when everyone is on board with it, but I've found it is actually a tougher sell among folks I know who use terms like referee (I think they are just tend to be more into a traditional, cooperative party). With referee, to me it isn't suggesting you are referring between players who are at odds with one another, but that you are referring in terms of rules adjudication. In this case, the players are effectively on the same team, and the opposing teams might be the threats they face or the challenges they encounter in the world.

Charlaquin · Jul 17, 2021

Bedrockgames said:
This is something I've never really encountered with people who use referee as a term. I actually do like player versus player when everyone is on board with it, but I've found it is actually a tougher sell among folks I know who use terms like referee (I think they are just tend to be more into a traditional, cooperative party). With referee, to me it isn't suggesting you are referring between players who are at odds with one another, but that you are referring in terms of rules adjudication.

But isn’t mediating between players/teams that are competing against each other the whole purpose of a referee?

Bedrockgames said:
In this case, the players are effectively on the same team, and the opposing teams might be the threats they face or the challenges they encounter in the world.

Sure, but since the DM is in control of those opposing teams, isn’t having them also be the referee of that competition kind of a conflict of interests? A referee is supposed to be a neutral third party, but in D&D there are only two parties. Unless the players are competing and the DM is mediating it, referee doesn’t seem like an accurate analogy to me.

Bedrockgames · Jul 17, 2021

Charlaquin said:
Sure, but since the DM is in control of those opposing teams, isn’t having them also be the referee of that competition kind of a conflict of interests? A referee is supposed to be a neutral third party, but in D&D there are only two parties. Unless the players are competing and the DM is mediating it, referee doesn’t seem like an accurate analogy to me.

That is exactly why thinking of yourself as the referee is useful. Because I think it is very easy to adopt an adversarial perspective when you are the one running the monsters. But if you call yourself a referee, you remind yourself your role isn't to compete against the players, it is to fairly adjudicate between the players and the monsters. It definitely is imperfect. You are taking on responsibilities and powers a soccer referee doesn't have. But the point is to prioritize making judgments about rules, running encounters and monsters fairly, giving player efforts a fair hearing and not being married to outcomes.

Lanefan · Jul 17, 2021

Dungeon master or referee? Or judge, another term used in the early days?

DM in name. All of the above in practice.

Maxperson · Jul 17, 2021

Marc_C said:
To be clear I don't insist on anything. Players call me the DM. I view myself as a referee during play and an adventure designer outside to play (based on PC actions). I don't like dungeons in general.

I absolutely LOVE dungeons. Why? Because even a small one will give me a 2-4 session breather to work on the rest of the game if I've fallen behind. Players are by nature very cautious in them, so they will spend a lot of time not going very far.

We're just beginning a new campaign where the players are relic seekers, so I expect this campaign to be more dungeon heavy than most of mine, but the players chose the campaign focus, so...

Enevhar Aldarion · Jul 17, 2021

I am not running a game with two competing teams of players, so I am not a Referee. I don't run hexcrawls or dungeon crawls, so I am not a Dungeon Master. I like cooperative games and help the players tell their story, so I tend to steal Storyteller from White Wolf games. That name really fits a lot of modern games, beyond just 5E D&D.