D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[overgeeked]

Then why do the rules offer me a featureless hallway with clear, obvious advantages?

Because they’re badly written.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Because they’re badly written.

....so you're not actually arguing with me. Because what I literally said was, a game shouldn't be designed like this. It should be designed so that making reasonable, smart decisions--not ruthless optimization, just playing smart--contributes to fun, not pulling away from fun.

Why are we arguing?

It depends on the group. If you have avid role-players who get into character, then sure, there’s infinite ways to create drama. If, however, you have a table full of Gygaxian pawn stance players, then the only thing they care about is their character...sometimes not even that. So there’s no chance for deep, rich storygaming. At which point fear is the only possible stick motivator. And you have loot as one of the few carrot motivators.

Alright. That's one pretty particular stance. You're presenting it as two very particular stances, but...as long as the game has some degree of story and roleplay, as long as the players are at least somewhat invested in what's happening around them rather than pure, undiluted "Gygaxian pawn-stance," you have more options. So...why not try for that? I feel like the very "why not choose the fun thing" argument turns back upon you here.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It depends on the group. If you have avid role-players who get into character, then sure, there’s infinite ways to create drama. If, however, you have a table full of Gygaxian pawn stance players, then the only thing they care about is their character...sometimes not even that. So there’s no chance for deep, rich storygaming.

Or you're playing the wrong game. One thing that a lot of storygames do is align in character motivation with player motivation so you may well get storygaming out of avid pawn players.

 

[Minigiant]

As an aside...

For a game with some much magic, D&D has a bit too few "fate worse than death" and "that really suck affects"

In the last session, a evil witch switched the races of 2 PCs who both failled Charisma saves twice. Rewrite your character sheets. That's after being pressed into a quest sessions ago..

 

[FireLance]

This thread reminded me that 4E used to award milestones if the PCs completed two encounters before taking a long rest. Unfortunately, I guess it didn't work well enough to counter the 5 minute work day. Maybe it was because the benefits (an action point and one use of a daily magic item ability) had to be used before the PCs took another long rest or they would be lost.

I wonder if something similar could be ported over to 5e, but this time, you get the benefits after you take a long rest - effectively, overcoming more challenges yesterday fills you with more confidence or helps you exercise your willpower so you can push yourself further today.

Let's call this new resource Resolve. Every time you finish a long rest, you get one point of Resolve for every two encounters you completed since your last long rest.

You can spend Resolve as follows:

• As a bonus action, you can spend one point of Resolve to regain one quarter of your hit points.
• If you are a spellcaster, you can spend one point of Resolve during a short rest to regain an expended spell slot of up to 5th level. If you are a warlock, you can do so as a bonus action instead.
• A barbarian can spend one point of Resolve during a short rest to regain one use of rage.
• A monk or a battlemaster fighter can spend one point of Resolve as a bonus action to regain one quarter (minimum 1) of their ki or superiority dice respectively.

This makes it more of a risk-reward scenario - is the risk of pressing on worth the reward, or should we just call it a day?

 

[Minigiant]

This thread reminded me that 4E used to award milestones if the PCs completed two encounters before taking a long rest. Unfortunately, I guess it didn't work well enough to counter the 5 minute work day. Maybe it was because the benefits (an action point and one use of a daily magic item ability) had to be used before the PCs took another long rest or they would be lost.

I wonder if something similar could be ported over to 5e, but this time, you get the benefits after you take a long rest - effectively, overcoming more challenges yesterday fills you with more confidence or helps you exercise your willpower so you can push yourself further today.

Let's call this new resource Resolve. Every time you finish a long rest, you get one point of Resolve for every two encounters you completed since your last long rest.

You can spend Resolve as follows:

• As a bonus action, you can spend one point of Resolve to regain one quarter of your hit points.
• If you are a spellcaster, you can spend one point of Resolve during a short rest to regain an expended spell slot of up to 5th level. If you are a warlock, you can do so as a bonus action instead.
• A barbarian can spend one point of Resolve during a short rest to regain one use of rage.
• A monk or a battlemaster fighter can spend one point of Resolve as a bonus action to regain one quarter (minimum 1) of their ki or superiority dice respectively.

This makes it more of a risk-reward scenario - is the risk of pressing on worth the reward, or should we just call it a day?

Well 4e milestones was an action point and a item charge right?

An action point is basically an extra action. An extra action is basically like using a short rest feature.

So how about just giving a character milestone and a item milestone for every three encounters you completed since your last long rest.

A character milestone recharges a class or race feature that returns after a short rest.
A item milestone grants item charges as if you took a long rest or as if a day passed.

Three instead of two encounters to push for 6 encounters.

 

[Hussar]

In general, I get the vague feeling that a fair number of the magic spells that were created by the pioneering players of early D&D were about trivializing travel and the exploration pillar.

Oh, absolutely.

And the level you get them is pretty obvious too.

At 1st and 2nd level, you're not really going to spend much time in the dungeon. You just don't have the HP or the resources. So, you go in, do your think and then head back to town. But, by 3rd level, you might want to stay a bit longer. So, poncing around tracking torches and lamp oil for a couple of days is annoying thus we get Continual Light spells. Then, by about 5th level, you can do extended forays - either into the wilderness or into the dungeon - and, oh look, create food and water from your cleric as a 3rd level spell as well as cure disease. Later on, you've managed to pretty much clear out the first four levels of the dungeon, but, it's annoying to keep slogging through random encounters on your way to the 5th level of the dungeon each time, so, poof, now you have teleport spells. So on and so forth.

Then, pile on a decade or so of new spells and now exploration is trivial to bypass.

 

[Minigiant]

Oh, absolutely.

And the level you get them is pretty obvious too.

At 1st and 2nd level, you're not really going to spend much time in the dungeon. You just don't have the HP or the resources. So, you go in, do your think and then head back to town. But, by 3rd level, you might want to stay a bit longer. So, poncing around tracking torches and lamp oil for a couple of days is annoying thus we get Continual Light spells. Then, by about 5th level, you can do extended forays - either into the wilderness or into the dungeon - and, oh look, create food and water from your cleric as a 3rd level spell as well as cure disease. Later on, you've managed to pretty much clear out the first four levels of the dungeon, but, it's annoying to keep slogging through random encounters on your way to the 5th level of the dungeon each time, so, poof, now you have teleport spells. So on and so forth.

Then, pile on a decade or so of new spells and now exploration is trivial to bypass.

Also consider that you had to prepare spells to slots back then and these spells were mostly for the priest classes.

Clerics and druids were really just supply stores that fight. You just prepared slots for the camping equipment, exploration equipment, and heals you needed for the day. You actively were telling the DM which encounters you planned to skip.

And since clerics and druids lacked a lot of combat destroying hmph, memorizing and preparing exploration spells was less of a penalty. You just had to weigh them with your heals and be high enough level.

4e just skipped the pretense and let you dump gold straight into magic.

 

[Garthanos]

As an aside...

For a game with some much magic, D&D has a bit too few "fate worse than death" and "that really suck affects"

magic not only can do anything eventually it also fixes everything

 

[Hussar]

Also consider that you had to prepare spells to slots back then and these spells were mostly for the priest classes.

Clerics and druids were really just supply stores that fight. You just prepared slots for the camping equipment, exploration equipment, and heals you needed for the day. You actively were telling the DM which encounters you planned to skip.

And since clerics and druids lacked a lot of combat destroying hmph, memorizing and preparing exploration spells was less of a penalty. You just had to weigh them with your heals and be high enough level.

4e just skipped the pretense and let you dump gold straight into magic.

Additionally, look at how the spells are organized. 2nd and 3rd level cleric spells in AD&D are mostly utility. A few combat, but, primarily utility spells. But the big thing is, no healing spells. You didn't have to compete between healing and utility because, well, there were no 2nd and 3rd level healing spells. And a LOT of those utility spells essentially created magic items - Create Food and Water didn't have a duration. Continual Light just worked forever. That sort of thing.

I can't be the only group that basically only saw cure light wounds prepped for 1st level spells (at least until very high levels) and then 2nd and 3rd level spells were whatever the caster wanted.