D&D General All Dead Generations: "Classic Vs. The Aesthetic"

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Why? They are able to interbreed, they have the same physical characteristics and the are able to create and be part of the same cultures. They have the same lifespan. They have the same ASIs. Outside of setting, what makes them non human except for minor physical differences like teeth alignment and skin color, which are really not good criteria to disqualify for humanity. What criterion can be used to say "this one is a human, that one is an orc", in setting, that wouldn't strike as utterly racist nowadays?
They were created by Gruumsh for starters. Creationism is just plain fact in most D&D settings, so the concept of species is far removed from it's real world equivalent.

See? Maybe if people stopped pushing the idea that non-human species are human, we would have less problems with them being used for racist purposes.
 

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I really don't get the "if they are not entirelly evil there's nothing of worth to have orcs, goblins, etc.. in the game". Just because they were once reduced to an alignment, it doesn't mean they can't be developed in to very interesting cultures. Eberron does it very well.
You would think. Except some people see any differentiation that is not purely cosmetic or superpowers that do not make you better at anything as problematic. Eberron's orc description was noted to be such in another thread just yesterday. Similarly some people do not seem to be able to imagine any sort of mental differentiation beyond 'they're evil,'
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Why? They are able to interbreed, they have the same physical characteristics and the are able to create and be part of the same cultures. They have the same lifespan. They have the same ASIs. Outside of setting, what makes them non human except for minor physical differences like teeth alignment and skin color, which are really not good criteria to disqualify for humanity. What criterion can be used to say "this one is a human, that one is an orc", in setting, that wouldn't strike as utterly racist nowadays?
Orcs are obligate carnivores. Thus, orcish cultures are almost always centered around herding and hunting, rather than agriculture.
 

Bolares

Hero
You would think. Except some people see any differentiation that is not purely cosmetic or superpowers that do not make you better at anything as problematic. Eberron's orc description was noted to be such in another thread just yesterday. Similarly some people do not seem to be able to imagine any sort of mental differentiation beyond 'they're evil,'
That's a shame. You can worldbuild with subtelty. You can make Orcs passionate instead of cruel. The good ones will defend their lands and loved ones with their life. The bad ones will be full of rage and cruelty....
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
You would think. Except some people see any differentiation that is not purely cosmetic or superpowers that do not make you better at anything as problematic. Eberron's orc description was noted to be such in another thread just yesterday. Similarly some people do not seem to be able to imagine any sort of mental differentiation beyond 'they're evil,'
I think seeing the Eberron orc description as problematic is a stretch too far.

I think there's a general divide between those who see fantasy races as necessarily allegorical to human cultures and groupings, and those who take more a zoomed-out anthropological world-building view.
 

That's a shame. You can worldbuild with subtelty. You can make Orcs passionate instead of cruel. The good ones will defend their lands and loved ones with their life. The bad ones will be full of rage and cruelty....
But that would make them more alike real people from the real world. That's precisely what some of us don't want them to be.

Some of us just need mindless caricatures to serve as the BBEG's foot soldiers.
 

Bolares

Hero
But that would make them more alike real people from the real world. That's precisely what some of us don't want them to be.

Some of us just need mindless caricatures to serve as the BBEG's foot soldiers.
Sure, you can do whatever you want in your game. I just don't agree with the argument that if they are not all bad they are useless and shouldn't exist at all.
 

Sure, you can do whatever you want in your game. I just don't agree with the argument that if they are not all bad they are useless and shouldn't exist at all.
I think there's enough space for both views in the RPG community. The fact that you can do whatever in your home game isn't really relevant to the discussion.
 

Bolares

Hero
I think there's enough space for both views in the RPG community. The fact that you can do whatever in your home game isn't really relevant to the discussion.
That's what I'm trying to say. There is space for both views. Saying "If they are not evil they shouldn't exist at all" is not that. It's saying things should be done my way and there shouldn't be any space for other views.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
But that would make them more alike real people from the real world. That's precisely what some of us don't want them to be.

Some of us just need mindless caricatures to serve as the BBEG's foot soldiers.
I generally agree with this. In real life, we can agree that violence is bad and traumatizing. In fiction, we can embrace violence as cool and fun. We can enjoy John Wick without thinking "Man, that guy who got a pencil in his eye had a mother that loved him."

Likewise, we can agree that in real life, all humans have inherit dignity and be valued as part of the human community. But in fiction, we can embrace our inherit desire to form in-groups and out-groups and chop up the out-group with abandon.

Now, I don't particularly want orcs and goblins to fill that role (I'm attached to both the WoW and Eberron portrayals of orcs and goblins), but I definitely think some humanoid(s) can and should fill the design space of designated out-group. If it needs to be more obviously non-human and corrupted to make it palatable to a wider audience, I'm fine with that as well.
 

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