D&D General D&D doesn't need Evil

[Deset Gled]

I don't know if D&D needs evil. But I know that I like having it there.

 

[Malmuria]

You mean like the White Walkers ?

I haven't read the books, but did watch the TV show. I felt the more the show focused on the white walkers, the more it became like more traditional, world-spanning, good vs evil high fantasy. Whereas in the earlier seasons most of the characters had complex motivations that guided their actions; these were in many cases despicable, but because they wanted power or revenge or pleasure or some other tangible goal and doing something "evil" was just a means to an end.

I think games revolving around intermeshed factions and plots are more the ideal for me than good vs evil. Morality can still exist in these worlds, but it comes at the expense of more practical considerations, including mere survival.

 

[BookTenTiger]

To elaborate a little more, I think evil is just too subjective.

As has been pointed out in this thread, people (in fiction and real life) to terrible things for good reasons, and good things for terrible reasons.

To the townsfolk, the Necromancer is evil because he's raiding their graveyards and planning an attack on their king. To the Necromancer, his actions are good because the king has outlawed his worship of a god of undeath. To the characters, the Necromancer's guards are evil because they're helping protect the Necromancer. To the guards, they are doing good because they're trying their best at a job they're being paid to do.

The big significant thing in my view is that evil doesn't need to be a justification for characters to fight something. As long as an enemy's goals obstruct the characters' goals, that's enough. This frees up anything in D&D from being "always evil." I don't think even Fiends and Undead need to be "evil." They just need to have goals that don't align with mortal beings, such as "corrupting souls" or "consuming all flesh."

 

[Lyxen]

In a sense, D&D does not need Evil, but Evil needs D&D...

 

[Charlaquin]

The big significant thing in my view is that evil doesn't need to be a justification for characters to fight something. As long as an enemy's goals obstruct the characters' goals, that's enough. This frees up anything in D&D from being "always evil." I don't think even Fiends and Undead need to be "evil." They just need to have goals that don't align with mortal beings, such as "corrupting souls" or "consuming all flesh."

This is my answer to the “why is it ok for demons/devils/mind flayers/whatever to be evil?” question. It doesn’t matter if you call them evil or not, their motivations are inherently antithetical to the existence and freedom of other life either way.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Continuing with the idea of Capital E Evil, I even think the idea of "evil gods" could be excised from D&D.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but historically in polytheistic mythology (such as Ancient Greece and Ancient Egypt), there aren't really "evil" gods. There are gods in conflict, and trickster gods, and gods of war, but as far as I know there wasn't an Ancient Greek God of Evil.

To me, it's much more useful to have Gods with Motivations. What does Gruumsh want? What does Vecna want? Most likely they want things that are antithetical to the desires of the heroes and the cultures they come from. To me, that's enough, and far more interesting than just labeling them (and those who worship them) as Evil.

 

[Lyxen]

The big significant thing in my view is that evil doesn't need to be a justification for characters to fight something.

This is honestly the biggest misconception about alignment (and its components) ever. Alignement, including good and evil, is not prescriptive, it never says that you must do something because you have a specific alignment. It is purely and totally descriptive, a record of your actions.

And originally, with the Great Wheel, it was to record where your soul would be going upon your death, nothing more. Afterm that, because your soul might be tainted one way or another, it had consequences about magic in particular, but it never forced you do to anything or fight anyone because of their alignement. Only actions mattered.

 

[Stormonu]

Need? No, but it doesn’t suffer from having it. I won’t be removing it from my games.

But just to note, 1E D&D was a lot more mercenary (or downright full of antiheroes), if you look at some of the old modules. Take for example, the opening text of C2 - Ghost Tower of Inverness…

A smile creeps across the Duke's face as he speaks to your small band. He seems strangely pleased with the turn of events. "I imagine you are wondering why you have been brought to appear before me today." His eyes sweep approvingly over the five figures in your group; none of you betray any apprehension about what is to come.

"Most of you," he continues, "have been convicted of crimes for which you should spend the greater part of your lives in my dungeons." His gaze falls upon one of your party, a thin man with a short black beard.

"Hodar," he begins, "you dared to defy a royal order and continued to dabble in sorceries which I had forbidden to all the people of my realm." Hodar's face remains calm as the Duke turns to the next of your group.

"I should have thought that a warrior of your caliber, Lembu, would have known better than to slay a captain of the guard in a bar room fight." A broad grin is the huge warrior's only reply. "Never mind the eleven guards-men you killed while resisting arrest."

"Zinethar," says the Duke, shaking his head as he addresses the next in line, a distinguished-looking man with gray hair, "your wisdom must have left you when you decided to lead that ill-fated Temple Coalition revolt these three months past."

"And you, Discinque, your rash daring and bravado is really to be marvelled at. One has to wonder where you would be now if not for that broken cornice which caused you to fall — with the Crown Jewels in hand — on top of sergeant Norlik and his men while they were out on patrol." The thief merely shrugs.

The Duke then turns and slowly bows to the last of your group; the tall barefoot woman. "Of all you five," declares the Duke, "Li Hon is the only one here who should not spend the rest of her life in prison for some crime. I am deeply honored, Li Hon, that your monastery saw fit to offer your services to me as payment of this year's taxes."

 

[Weiley31]

Without the evil, who is gonna stop the Goody Two Shoes king from spreading love and joy and peace around the land?
Bartender sloooooooooooowly lookstowards the group of PCs, who are known for doing things if Gold and (insert whatever) is inovlved.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Without the evil, who is gonna stop the Goody Two Shoes king from spreading love and joy and peace around the land?

Bards.