D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Helldritch]

And Permeton showed that there were still clerics of these beings in 4e. Well after the warlock was not only created, but in the core game. They weren't common, but they existed.

Also, divine Rank doesn't really exist anymore except in the loosest terms, and as I pointed out, many of the Demon Lords and Archdevils qualify as Lesser Gods, because they can hear and answer prayers. That is explicitly Levistus's punishment in Mordenkainen's Tome, that he is forced to answer prayers of the desperate to give them escape from their fates. Since according to the DMG, only Lesser Gods or higher can do that, then even if Clerics are gated behind needing Divine Rank... these beings have acheived that. They have enough worshippers from their various cults to have made that transition.



Ah, well, that seems to be the majority position though, which makes it difficult to discuss with you and Maxperson simultaneously.

Also, do you have an answer to how Sin can exist in DnD? You skipped that part, I mean, if Asmodeus is the God of Sin, then it must mean something right?

I encourage you to throughly read what our friend @Doug McCrae did as a research. It's quite a piece and answer all your questions both from a printed history perspective and from articles. I am very impressed, and that is hard to do with me...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Since there's no actual canon reasons, all we can do is homebrew solutions to them.

Ah, I didn't realize you had put agreed with the sentiment that there is no real purpose to the Evil Gods, beyond having them to have them. Yes, if you have reached that point then the only thing left is to homebrew solutions, and I liked some of yours in theory. I had my own that I implemented.

No, because their war involves supremacy between goblins and orcs, both of which are Material Plane creatures. Even if a lot of their fighting takes place on the outer planes in Acheron or whatever, the basis is the Material.

Just checking, because the end of the Blood War is generally considered to be the point when the winning forces turn to the Material plane, so I'm not seeing much of a difference here.

I'd say it's less "cancels out their ability to focus on other things like the Material Plane" and more "they have no need to be interested in other things."

Take this as a given: gods either need or want prayer. Whether it's food for them, the divine equivalent of Likes, or something else entirely. To get prayer, they want living mortals to be their worshipers.

But arch-fiends don't need or want prayer. What they want is souls, which are food, a power source, and a currency all in one. Fiends don't need worshipers to get souls, because evil mortals who die go to the lower planes anyway, no matter who they worshiped in life. Now sure, a person worships an evil god, they're probably going to instead show up as a petitioner in that god's realm (although in my mind, an evil god would probably not accept the souls of worshipers who were evil but who failed to actually follow the god's portfolio--Bane wouldn't want a worshiper who spent his life murdering puppies for fun but who shied away from war). But imagine some dude who worshiped Tyr but went too heavy-handed and his "justice" turned into torturous revenge. Tyr would likely kick him out to the lower planes. Unless he becomes undead, his soul goes to the lower planes and becomes a larva. It then gets rounded up by a night hag or something and stuck with a bunch of other larva in a cattle yard, and then, eventually, sold to whatever entity decided to buy it--which could be a devil, demon, yugoloth, or anything else that has a use for damned souls.

Arch-fiends also get worshipers. This is a bonus because it both gives them a mortal agent who can increase the amount of evil in the world (thus ensuring more souls), and when the worshiper dies, they're likely to then show up in the fiend's domain--which means they manifest as a devil or demon. Even a lemure or nuppirubo is more useful than a larva in the archfiend's fight against the other archfiends, and some worshipers will end up as Type II or III fiends instead. But, these worshipers are not essential in the way they are for gods. They're just icing. Arch-fiends get the cake automatically, where gods have to work to get it.

An interesting way to take it. Except that the Devils do make deals for souls. Sure, maybe any given Lawful Evil soul gets taken to the Nine Hells, but then it is just picked up by whoever. Devils who don't focus on the material plane to some extent tend to end up weaker, unless they have something to offer those hags, because they have to fight and search for souls, while those who make contracts are guaranteed souls.

I'd say the same thing happens with the Demon Lords. Worship them, pledge to them, and your soul is send directly to them, instead of them having to grub in the dirt for a larva. It isn't icing, it is delivery.

Also, while it may have fallen out of style, there is the divide of the mortal into soul and animus, which means that they might be able to get the soul for power, and use the animus to create a fiend, making it a two for one deal.

So, not essential in the same manner, if we go with the idea of a god without worshipers dying, but still important enough to be a priority to them as well.

Maybe, maybe not. I have no idea what the arch-fiends did before the Blood War was invented for Planescape. But let's say that the Blood War was never invented. No Lawful fiends vs. Chaotic fiends. The arch-things would likely still be focused on the outer planes instead of the Material. They would be fighting other arch-fiends, if only for territory, resources, or to settle grudges. They'd just be more likely to be fighting other fiends of their own type. There would be probably more attacks on or by celestials. With the Blood War, angels are content to ignore demons and devils as long as they're killing each other and not other beings; without the Blood War, they'd have more work on their hands.

So this, combined with their lack of need for living worshipers, means that arch-fiends still don't have any reason to hit the Material Plane.

I disagree entirely. The Material plane is the only source for more devils, you may have them showing up randomly in the Styx, but that is much less efficient then getting them to pledge directly to you, denying all your rivals the potential to obtain those mortals.

Demons might care less.... except that they are embodiments of destruction, they have an intense desire to destroy the material plane, by their very nature. So, there isn't really a reason for them not to go to the prime, at least as much as they currently do. After all, they don't just need resources to fight Demons vs Devils, but also Demons vs Demons and Devils vs Devils... conflicts that are still ongoing despite the Blood War

 

[Chaosmancer]

As I told you, not everything cost PP. But over extending is a possibility and this is exactly why Asmodeus is playing the various hellish lords against one an other.

This seems to be a rather vague statement that doesn't answer any of my questions.

Is creating and empowering followers something that costs PP?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Each one does, but IMO there's an infinite number of them which grows by one every time a DM starts a new campaign.

Sure, but that isn't the point, I already acknowledged an infinite number of Primes.

Access them, sure. Live on them? Not as likely.

Just like various mortals can access the Abyss or the Hells, but wouldn't want to live there.

That's beside the point. They aren't trying to live there, they are trying to corrupt the mortals that live there to spread their influence and power.

Ah. I've always seen it that most major deities are universal, and any local variants are just that: variants or aspects of a major one* tailored to suit that particular culture. This allows me to have as many different cultures and-or deities in play as I need but all underpinned by a universal system in which there's really only 21 deities; a system that I can port into any setting with trivial ease.

* - for example, take Bane. I've never used Bane as a deity of anything in my settings, and were he to show up there he'd just be an aspect of some other, bigger deity (probably Dispater in my system, or maybe Asmodeus).

Sure, that is one way to take it. It doesn't seem to be the majority consensus that we were discussing at the moment though.

Area claimed doesn't help your power much if you've few or no worshippers within that area.

Sure, but if you claim a little area in an infinite number of places, you get infinite power. This is the economy of scale idea taken to an extreme that is impossible generally, but if we accept Archfiends working at the multiversal scale, then it is what is likely to happen.

 

[Helldritch]

This seems to be a rather vague statement that doesn't answer any of my questions.

Is creating and empowering followers something that costs PP?

Nope, the goal would be to have has many as possible. Of course, the opposing side will try to do the same. Again, it was a game of careful considerations and calculations. Can I afford that much? Can I do it with less than my opponent? Can I even do it without using PP? And if I must intervene directly, beside the initial PP put initially, how much can I afford before my other endeavors are at risks.

Yes this is a lot of generalities but that is the best I can do without plunging again the rules and relearn them. The last time we played was in 1994-5? And I was not an ongoing campaign but an episodic one.

The one thing it showed us is that God's are competing with one another and they do follow rules. Yes some are trying to cheat (evil gods in general...) But most follow the rules if not for a belief in the system, it is out of fear that many gods will gank upon them. It was not a perfect system, but it was quite inspiring.

 

[Helldritch]

Sure, but that isn't the point, I already acknowledged an infinite number of Primes.



That's beside the point. They aren't trying to live there, they are trying to corrupt the mortals that live there to spread their influence and power.



Sure, that is one way to take it. It doesn't seem to be the majority consensus that we were discussing at the moment though.



Sure, but if you claim a little area in an infinite number of places, you get infinite power. This is the economy of scale idea taken to an extreme that is impossible generally, but if we accept Archfiends working at the multiversal scale, then it is what is likely to happen.

Remember that most gods do not limit themselves to only one prime. What Asmodeus can do, a god does it better with faster results as Asmodeus was cursed to live in hell by the gods.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I encourage you to throughly read what our friend @Doug McCrae did as a research. It's quite a piece and answer all your questions both from a printed history perspective and from articles. I am very impressed, and that is hard to do with me...

I read it, it seems to tend to agree with my interpretation being one of the two possibilities. I've also been quoting my own research, to support my points, some of which came from the same sources.

Unless you are referring to this idea that, for example, in 5e Yeenoghu for example is serving Erthynul, a god who has barely been mentioned in 5e, and a position which directly conflicts with the information provided for 5e. I won't dispute that in 3e Dieties and Demigods they defaulted to that position, but in 5e it seems they went with the alternative cosmology proposed in the next paragraph

 

[Helldritch]

I read it, it seems to tend to agree with my interpretation being one of the two possibilities. I've also been quoting my own research, to support my points, some of which came from the same sources.

Unless you are referring to this idea that, for example, in 5e Yeenoghu for example is serving Erthynul, a god who has barely been mentioned in 5e, and a position which directly conflicts with the information provided for 5e. I won't dispute that in 3e Dieties and Demigods they defaulted to that position, but in 5e it seems they went with the alternative cosmology proposed in the next paragraph

What is fun about D&D is that it is such a melting pot, that you can find anything and adjust it to your own tastes.

It will always work out fine. It might not be to the taste of someone else, but if it fits you and your table, it is all good.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Remember that most gods do not limit themselves to only one prime. What Asmodeus can do, a god does it better with faster results as Asmodeus was cursed to live in hell by the gods.

That is one story, and many gods ARE limited to a single prime.

Nope, the goal would be to have has many as possible. Of course, the opposing side will try to do the same. Again, it was a game of careful considerations and calculations. Can I afford that much? Can I do it with less than my opponent? Can I even do it without using PP? And if I must intervene directly, beside the initial PP put initially, how much can I afford before my other endeavors are at risks.

Yes this is a lot of generalities but that is the best I can do without plunging again the rules and relearn them. The last time we played was in 1994-5? And I was not an ongoing campaign but an episodic one.

The one thing it showed us is that God's are competing with one another and they do follow rules. Yes some are trying to cheat (evil gods in general...) But most follow the rules if not for a belief in the system, it is out of fear that many gods will gank upon them. It was not a perfect system, but it was quite inspiring.

Huh?

"No, making a follower and empowering them my power doesn't cost power points, but the game is about considering and calculating if you can afford to spend that many power points?"

Well, making followers and giving them magic is free, so there is no calculation to be made, you do the free thing that gets you stuff. There would literally never be a reason not to make more clerics, if they are a zero cost to make.

Though this does raise the question of where the power for clerics comes from if the gods aren't expending power in their creation.


And sure, I'm not against the rule set at all, it is something I said earlier I'd like to see revisited, but it seems from your explanations that you barely remember it, and that makes it really hard to see how this is all supposed to fit together and prove the role and purpose of evil gods. It seems that the idea of "god" is just a rank up in how many points you have, and an Archfiend can still get those points, same as anyone else and then is suddenly "a god" even if nothing has actually changed

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I've followed this thread and find myself wondering what the Council of Nicaea must have been like.