D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Faolyn]

That isn't what that paragraph means. It doesn't say that they can do it as a blanket statement. It says that if the DM chooses to build his own setting, the DM can build a religious system where fiends do grant spells. The rules don't care where the power comes from.

If you choose a pre-established setting, though, you go with what the setting default and for most settings(like Greyhawk and the Realms) that is the Loose Pantheon model.

All right, now you're just grasping at straws.

The DMG, in this section, is clearly giving that as a possible option. Of course the DM can do anything they want to do; that's a given. But here's the DMG literally showing that fiends can grant spells.

I'm not. I'm pointing out that 5e confuses the hell out of things by using multiple meanings for the same terms. Clerical spells don't mean you are a cleric.

It's not a homebrew solution. The NPC section refers you to chapter 9 for creation of NPCs. In that chapter you can give NPCs whatever abilities you want, including equipping them with magic items. It even gives sample features, but that is non-exhaustive list. Hell, since NPCs don't use PC rules, there's nothing that actually requires an NPC to attune items at all.

Still grasping. The DMG, MM, and various adventures are all showing that NPCs can count as having a class.

But, sadly, I see that you're not going to accept anything as evidence, not even the words from the core books themselves.

 

[Krachek]

if the thread continue like that, the next DM guide in 2024 will need a thousand page just to describe all the different cases of god, halfgod, demigod, fiendgod, and their relations with clergy, cultist, fanatic, zealot, followers and others,
There is a DM in the game, he can takes decision and build up a fantasy world, the DM don’t need to tell how god sneeze.

 

[Maxperson]

The DMG, in this section, is clearly giving that as a possible option. Of course the DM can do anything they want to do; that's a given. But here's the DMG literally showing that fiends can grant spells.

Absolutely. There's no doubt that it's possible homebrew for DMs when they design a personal campaign setting. When discussing established settings, that doesn't apply. I don't know of any official 5e setting that is a Monotheism.

The DMG, MM, and various adventures are all showing that NPCs can count as having a class.

However you want to spin it, none of them has a PC class. If you need to be a cleric to attune, then they don't qualify. The attunement rules use PC classes.

 

[Maxperson]

if the thread continue like that, the next DM guide in 2024 will need a thousand page just to describe all the different cases of god, halfgod, demigod, fiendgod, and their relations with clergy, cultist, fanatic, zealot, followers and others,
There is a DM in the game, he can takes decision and build up a fantasy world, the DM don’t need to tell how god sneeze.

Gods don't sneeze

 

[Chaosmancer]

The main way to see if someone is a cleric is to check if they have the cleric class. The class spell list can be used by non-clerics.

And how would they do that to get cantrips, first level spells and second level spells?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Those are divine spells on the cleric list, yes. Non-clerics can in fact use them. There are tons of monster who are not clerics that can cast spells from that list.

Who?

It has happened, just not in an official product which uses the monster block method. The rules for it are in the DMG for DMs who wish to use them.

So, it has never happened in an official product ever. Seems like something we could ignore then, in favor of looking to what we do have.

Worshippers of a extraplanar being with clerical spells. AKA a cleric.

 

[Maxperson]

And how would they do that to get cantrips, first level spells and second level spells?

You simply assign spells to the NPC/Monster.

 

[Maxperson]

Who?

All of the angels for starters. Not one cleric among them. Lots of cleric spells. Innate spellcasting still accesses the cleric list for those spells. And I found the following in the MM under spellcasting, so I'm tagging @Faolyn as well.

"The monster has a list of spells known or prepared from a specific class. The list might also include spells from a feature in that class, such as the Divine Domain feature of the cleric or the Druid Circle feature of the druid. The monster is considered a member of that class when attuning to or using a magic item that requires membership in the class or access to its spell list."

If you are considered to be a member, then you are not an actual member. You are only considered one under limited circumstances. Actual members of that class would not be called out as being "considered members."

 

[Chaosmancer]

Evidence, please.

Oh what? Major changes in portfolios being major events?

The Time of Troubles/ The Avatars when the gods were stripped of their powers and portfolios were up for grabs. One of the few times it happened and a major event.

If you showed it to someone else, I didn't see it. If you showed it to me, then no, you didn't prove anything. "It stands to reason" is not evidence.

Well, I'm sorry you missed it. But I'm not going to go back and repost every single piece of evidence found by myself, Pemerton and others just because you missed it the first time. I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with this thread as is.

You are claiming that the creation of a new god would disrupt the balance. Show us that is the case. I'm sure that if it happened, it would be in an adventure or novel or even a splatbook somewhere, meaning that some online wiki has to have info on it. Google it.

So, you want me to prove Max's claim of the cosmic balance, then find you something somewhere that deals with the creation of a new god disrupting that cosmic balance?

Well, I can;t prove Max's claim on Cosmic Balance, because I can't speak for him, so again, if you want to know that, you might want to speak to him.

As for "the creation of a new god disrupting the cosmic balance" how about any adventure where the goal is to stop the BBEG from becoming a god? Probably one featuring a Yuan-Ti trying to ascend, since that is a major plot point of their race. I don't have every official product memorized, but it is a bog standard plot device.

I'm sure I'll get around to it. But you're claiming that the creation of a new god would disrupt the balance.

I just showed you that it very likely wouldn't.

You showed that it potentially wouldn't, there were two examples.

Please show me the RAW about how to create a god.

If there aren't any such rules, then talking about how to create gods is entirely relevant.

No, it isn't. Because we aren't talking in any way, shape or form about making new gods. So creating gods is entirely irrelevant.

Except when you told me I was doing it wrong in how I created gods. This means that you are pushing your preference on me.

You mean when I was talking about how to have the discussion on the role and purpose of evil gods. Remember the post immediately before this one I clarified that I had zero idea you were talking about something as irrelevant to the conversation as the creation of new gods.

"So if Maxperson jumped off a cliff, would you?" --somebody's mother.

Permerton's rules, from what I've seen of them (which isn't every post), don't really support your assertion. And you haven't provided any facts that I've seen.

So, you want me to dismiss the basis of someone elses argument and substitute it for yours, because that will be, what? How does dismissing Max out of hand lead to a better discussion?

Nobody. There was no god of magical secrets before that. He managed to invent his own job. According to Wikipedia, his history just says that, after getting killed by Kas, he rose as the demigod of magic and secrets and only became a greater god after eating Iuz. The FR Wiki says that he became a demigod after centuries of worship by his followers.

You still seem to think that there's a limited number of portfolios going around. This isn't the case.

So wait, now that Vecna exists, this portfolio of magic and secrets exists. Before he existed, it didn't. Or maybe it did but it was unclaimed and inactive.

So... if there was a cosmic balance before Vecna, then that balance would have changed when Vecna took his position. But this is just basic logic, it can't be proof of anything because I don't have page numbers that state this outright.

Since I'm one of the people who has pointed out that 5e archfiends can grant spells, no, that's not different at all.

But the fact bot arch-things and gods can grant spells doesn't make them redundant. (You never did address my point about sylvan gods being redundant with arch-fey.)

What's to address? You are probably right. Their are very few archfey, but considering the elves were fey, their gods would have likely been archfey at some point. There is a strong likelihood of redundancy there. However, the Archfey and the Fey in generally are very poorly defined and lack a solid basis, unlike the Demons and Devils, so it is much harder to talk about them.


And I've noticed you arguing one of my points. That's one of the things that makes this so frustrating. Because you seem to agree with me, but you have some chip on your shoulder about how you interpret my intentions.

As soon as you want to start doing so, go ahead.

I have been.

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They're not entirely zero-calorie, but they're the type of food where you burn more calories eating them then they produce, so they kinda are.

So, not entirely zero calorie, which is what I said. All food must contain calories, because that's how food works.

He's the patron saint of Northumbria.

No idea, is that a real place? Ah, seems it is. So, he wasn't even a figure created for the game, but one stolen from the Catholic Church. Good to know.

I haven't said that you can't continue. I've asked you why you want to continue. In this thread, and in others I've seen you in, you belabor the point, move goalposts, and ignore or dismiss every shred of evidence or opinion that doesn't match yours, and you either accidentally or purposely misread people's comments in the most hostile manner possible. You seem to only care about "winning" the argument. That's why I want to know what your endgame is.

If that's not what you actually want, then you need to alter your writing style because it certainly looks like it is.

Maybe I should just stop, because no matter what I do, no matter how many times I clarify, it doesn't matter. The accusations just come pouring in and I spend more time defending myself than actually discussing the point.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'd go the same way for her domain.
For the second part... that is debatable. Unless your cleric worship a whole pantheon. Then sure, why not.

I don't see how it is debatable, but I guess that is getting sidetracked again.