D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Voadam]

In the 5e DMG, under "Other Religious Systems," it says: "Monotheistic religions revere only one deity, and in some cases, deny the existence of any other deity. If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don't, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren't deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith." (emphasis mine)

The DMG specifically states that clerics (specifically clerics, not "priests" or "worshipers" or "warlocks") can gain spells from fiends.

That seems like it can reasonably be read as an if-then situation and not a generally applicable rule. If you have a setup of only one god and other religions with spellcasting clerics, then their spells might be powered by fiends. It seems like it can be read that one option in a setup with no evil gods is to have fiends change from the default to step into the normal role of evil gods.

 

[Voadam]

Either you use it or you do not. If you use only the DMG, archdevils are not gods but can serve as conduit for clerics. If you use the optional rule of the DDG, then you can use the option of making some of them lesser gods (and at this point, why not making them all lesser gods...) But you also must use the non optional rule of divine ranks...which makes it so that 5th level spells require at least a demigod to be granted.

If you use just the 1e DMG it does not specify whether archdevils are gods or not.

It is unspecified and seems it can go reasonably either way.

In D3 Lolth is never referred to as a goddess. She is unspecified. This is different than the 2e Guide to Hell or the statements in the 3.0 BoVD, 3.5 Fiendish Codexes, and 4e MM where there are explicit statements of various arch-fiends not being gods.

 

[Maxperson]

And what other regard matters?

Being an actual cleric for starters. None of them are clerics of anyone. They aren't clerics.

Well, I can answer my own question there. Saving throws and HP and skill proficiencies. However, in a more essential manner, as in "what is the essence of this" they are clerics. They use clerical magic. They attune to clerical items. They worship like clerics.

Almost correct. They use the clerical spell list, not clerical magic as they only count as clerics for what spells they can PICK. And they may or may not worship, but if they do it's not like a cleric, since they are not clerics.

In every way that matters, they are clerics.

Except for being one of course. Oh, and having clerical abilities. They don't do that, either.

I had not considered the divine soul angle, but I again see that much more like angels and other celestials. They are intrinsically tied to the divine planes, and thus have innate divine magic. A divine soul sorcerer never has to worship a god, they have a sliver of god inside them.

They could still be considered to be clerics for the same purposes, though. That's the point. People who are not clerics, but who have some holiness(however they get it), can be considered clerics in a few areas without being actual clerics.

A cultist worships, that is the source of their power. Identically to a cleric.

If it was identical, they would be clerics. They aren't.

 

[Helldritch]

If you use just the 1e DMG it does not specify whether archdevils are gods or not.

It is unspecified and seems it can go reasonably either way.

I would not go that far. If you use the 1ed core books, Archdevils and other fiends are not even listed as possible agents for clerical spells... We infer that they are because what else would evil gods would be using in their stead?

She may not be referred as a goddess in her stat block, but all drow cleric worship the godess Lolth. That much is clearly written.

Was it an oversight not to write it in her stat bloc? I do believe so.

 

[Krachek]

DnD has changed a lot over 50 years.
The concept of setting rules and core rules was more blend at first, and today it got more clear what remain in setting realm and what is govern by core rules.
In the actual Phb, the role of a god for a cleric is pretty a fluff description. There is no god impact for alignment, spell selection, spell slot recovery.
The DM guide give no restrictions on the possible nature of gods, or their relation with followers. Gods giving spells, or relying on followers for their power are assumption from past editions or are settings features.
To go back to the OP question, the DM guide answer already, you can create a setting that is driven by force and philosophies where there is no usual Deities.

 

[Voadam]

She may not be referred as a goddess in her stat block, but all drow cleric worship the godess Lolth. That much is clearly written.

Was it an oversight not to write it in her stat bloc? I do believe so.

Drow clerics of the Elder Elemental God have also been shown from the first appearances, they are the ones you see originally in the G series giants modules and are seen in the D series too.

In reviewing D3 just now I did find two references to Lolth as a deity.

Page 5:

"Ghast and Ghoul groups are Drow connected. They report to the female Drow nobles and serve the deity of the Drow.
. . .
Shadow groups are spies for the Drow, for they are the major creations of the Drow deity."

It does not say directly that Lolth is the Drow deity, but that seems to be who is being referenced as the Elder Elemental God is a minority figure of worship and this is not an Eilserv-specific context entry (the Eilservs being the drow who took up EEG worship as their deity after Lolth priestesses blocked their bid to rule all drow).

 

[Faolyn]

That seems like it can reasonably be read as an if-then situation and not a generally applicable rule. If you have a setup of only one god and other religions with spellcasting clerics, then their spells might be powered by fiends. It seems like it can be read that one option in a setup with no evil gods is to have fiends change from the default to step into the normal role of evil gods.

I'm not reading it as an if/then at all. It's an example of what you can do if you have a monotheistic religion but want other religions as well. It doesn't say that you can only do this if you have a monotheistic religion. It doesn't say you can only do this if you don't have evil gods. It just says that there are other options.

 

[Voadam]

I would not go that far. If you use the 1ed core books, Archdevils and other fiends are not even listed as possible agents for clerical spells... We infer that they are because what else would evil gods would be using in their stead?

I would think that would depend on the god and the cosmology.

The 1e DMG said "In the former case, where the unfaithful cleric desires third through fifth level spells, the minions (angels, demi-gods, or whatever) will be likely to require the cleric to spend 2-8 days in prayer, fasting, and contemplation of his or her transgressions, making whatever sacrifices and atonement are necessary thereafter, before freely granting those powers once again."

When the 1e DMG was written there were no angels in D&D (the closest in the 1e MM would be things like Shedu or Lammasu) so the DM would not be using angels out of the MM (as there were none) but would be making up such supernatural god servants. They might use existing good creatures from the MM for such a purpose, but that does not seem to be the implied default. I would expect a DM to do the same for evil gods.

I used a "Dark Spirit" as a minion of a god that appeared to a PC evil cleric of a goddess of shadows in my AD&D campaign.

 

[Helldritch]

Drow clerics of the Elder Elemental God have also been shown from the first appearances, they are the ones you see originally in the G series giants modules and are seen in the D series too.

In reviewing D3 just now I did find two references to Lolth as a deity.

Page 5:

"Ghast and Ghoul groups are Drow connected. They report to the female Drow nobles and serve the deity of the Drow.
. . .
Shadow groups are spies for the Drow, for they are the major creations of the Drow deity."

It does not say directly that Lolth is the Drow deity, but that seems to be who is being referenced as the Elder Elemental God is a minority figure of worship and this is not an Eilserv-specific context entry (the Eilservs being the drow who took up EEG worship as their deity after Lolth priestesses blocked their bid to rule all drow).

Exactly. She has been referred that way. Maybe the reference to her "demonic" was because she was evil... Anything evil was fiendish one way or an other ar that period.

Also, it is also known that on the WG4 adventure, the Elder Elemental Eye is revealed to be Tharizdun. (Or was it in The return to the temple of elemental evil that the connection was revealed? It's been a long time...)

 

[Helldritch]

I would think that would depend on the god and the cosmology.

The 1e DMG said "In the former case, where the unfaithful cleric desires third through fifth level spells, the minions (angels, demi-gods, or whatever) will be likely to require the cleric to spend 2-8 days in prayer, fasting, and contemplation of his or her transgressions, making whatever sacrifices and atonement are necessary thereafter, before freely granting those powers once again."

When the 1e DMG was written there were no angels in D&D (the closest in the 1e MM would be things like Shedu or Lammasu) so the DM would not be using angels out of the MM (as there were none) but would be making up such supernatural god servants. They might use existing good creatures from the MM for such a purpose, but that does not seem to be the implied default. I would expect a DM to do the same for evil gods.

I used a "Dark Spirit" as a minion of a god that appeared to a PC evil cleric of a goddess of shadows in my AD&D campaign.

I did just about the same thing as devils were not associated with gods before the DDG (which I bought only in 1984-5). That is why I conceded that some archdevils might be able to grant some spells. But I would limit these to spells of 4th level or less as fiends were not demi-gods (well, unless you used the rule to make them lesser gods, which I was not).