D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

By the beer costing 4 copper a mug, and the daily costs of being poor being 2 silvers, exactly what they make for unskilled labor.
Average living expanses for the adventurer is 1 gold per day. Or 7 gold per week. This is way more than the average peasant will ever see.

Hey, maybe they do save up one thousand copper pieces or have one hundred silver... but that doesn't mean they see a gold piece, and since they are looking at daily operating costs around single digit silver.
But not the players.



You are making up numbers because you didn't like the real numbers.
Nope. But at this point it becomes childish.


Water which might be present.
Or not.

But, you really aren't thinking about this in terms of physics. Yes, you can guarantee thermal Shock by putting an item that is 200 degres and exposing it to -30 degree temps. That is a difference of 230 degrees... and you could have the same temperature swing going from 80 degrees to -150. Which is ALSO a 230 degree swing.

And considering the cold damage will freeze a person to death in six seconds.... it's probably pretty dang cold.

Also, just as a secondary note again, nothing in the rules says that stone walls are immune to cold damage. At best you could argue resistance, which won't prevent damage from occuring.
Take CO2 that you find in extinguisher. They can kill, they're pretty darn cold and guess what? They will not harm a gypse wall, much less a concrete wall or a stone wall. Your point is utter BS.


Double Checks book Huh, this says that it is the Player's Handbook for 5th Edition. And it doesn't include a section titled "rules from older editions that you are required to include"

And since this example has been discussing 5th edition the entire time (since previous editions didn't have dedicated backgrounds listed like they are for 5e, and we've been discussing 5e backgrounds) then your barb falls flat. I don't need to know anything about how second edition was run to run 5th edition, and the designers didn't assume you would have 2e books sitting on your shelf.
That is why you have to extrapolate for 5ed. We do not have the rules. Either you make them up, or you inspire yourself from older book. One the main principles of 5ed is compatibility with older editions. That was its main selling point. So taking what was done for these cases in the abscence of current rules is actually what almost everyone does.


There is no reason to assume that a wizard who owes 10 gold in taxes would be required to spend 24 hours casting spells and saving the kingdoms 100,000 of gold. I don't care whether or not gold passes hands, they are being taxed on a value, and the wizard's spellcasting has value.
Court wizard, academicians even the priesthood can be put to contribution. Some of them might even do it out of patriotism. It is not only wizards that can cast these spells.

Would a tailor charge for every stitch? No. But if they owe 5 silvers in taxes are they going to fill a wardrobe with dozens of silk shirts worth 10 gold a pop for their taxes? No. Because they don't owe that much, unless you are exploiting their labor. And I'd be careful abut exploiting wizards who are not only intelligent enough to realize it, but powerful enough to object. Strenuously.

A working day per month is actually not that much and it was done in the past. Where do you think most soldiers would get their clothes? Hey, levies were providing their own quilted armor (when they could). They were not paid either. Your lack of knowledge on medieval times is showing there.

Weird, I thought we were doing a medieval system of government, not Waterdeep's.
Hey! You insists on 5ed. I bring a 5ed system (in which levies and taxation can be paid (in previous edition) with work too). I just followed your own train of thoughts.

By the way, why is the tiny village of Mudville using the legal system from one of the richest trade cities in the world? And wasn't the setting Greyhawk before, not Faerun?
So far we have talked about: Greyhawk, Krynn, The Realms, Athas (Darksun) and even the planes and real world. I know it can be confusing but hey! You change setting according to your liking. Why can't I. And on the plus side, the legal system of Waterdeep was reprinted and explained in details in Dragon Heist.



And would require, at a minimum, a 13th level caster (which I'm sure you'll say is no problem, and every single kingdom has those) and would cost the government 10,500 gold per prisoner... which I'm sure you'll say is free because reasons that ignore 5e's official rules.

At that point the cost is so prohibitive, that frankly, you'll likely just kill them.
Well, in the Realms, high level casters are almost legions.
And yes, kill them is the simplest answer. But for "political" prisonners, a nice temporal stasis is always a good thing to do.

I'm not the one trying to say that using 5e's rule for a 5e game is homebrewing, because I should be referencing 2e, and changing the situation every post to refer to new locations and stipulations.
So you can do it but not me? Not a very fair position you have there. 5ed has no rules for kingdoms and similar simulations. Either homebrew or refer to older material to do it. Until we have a clear rule book for that, I guess we're stuck.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Average living expanses for the adventurer is 1 gold per day. Or 7 gold per week. This is way more than the average peasant will ever see.

Okay and? You asked how peasants can afford beer and to live. I pointed out that unskilled labor is paid 2 silvers a day, the same as a poor life style. Coming at me with adventurer stats is meaningless, we aren't talking about adventurers. And, even if we were, living expenses for adventurers is far more flexible than that.

But not the players.

And we aren't talking about player's expenses, so who cares?

Nope. But at this point it becomes childish.

What? Not letting you bully me into ignoring the rules of the game?


Which is why I didn't bring it up. You did.

Take CO2 that you find in extinguisher. They can kill, they're pretty darn cold and guess what? They will not harm a gypse wall, much less a concrete wall or a stone wall. Your point is utter BS.

Yeah, CO2 exposure can kill you... by suffocation. Take a gander at some EPA and other sites on the dangers of fire extinguishers.



The only mention of temperature is in how they prevent fires, any health risks are from toxic chemicals or over-exposure to CO2 gases, which can cause people to suffocate or die from over-exposure to the gases. Not from it getting cold.

Maybe you should do a little research.

That is why you have to extrapolate for 5ed. We do not have the rules. Either you make them up, or you inspire yourself from older book. One the main principles of 5ed is compatibility with older editions. That was its main selling point. So taking what was done for these cases in the abscence of current rules is actually what almost everyone does.

There is no lack of current rules. The prices are all listed. I will admit, there are no rules for tax rates, but that is something that is going to vary greatly depending on numerous factors, and so there isn't really a good reason to include it. But the rules do not provide any "NPC discount" and that is not because those rules are lacking, but because they are not intended.

Court wizard, academicians even the priesthood can be put to contribution. Some of them might even do it out of patriotism. It is not only wizards that can cast these spells.

Ah yes, all those patriots willing to spend massive amounts of money to imprison a single man. Enough to be a state-run prison system. Well, since you can make up rich patriots, I'll make up rich people who want to be paid for their unique services that can't be compelled by force. Which is more historically supported I wonder? Rich people gleefully giving away their money, or rich people holding onto their money?


A working day per month is actually not that much and it was done in the past. Where do you think most soldiers would get their clothes? Hey, levies were providing their own quilted armor (when they could). They were not paid either. Your lack of knowledge on medieval times is showing there.

How many of those levy soldiers were nobility? Oh wait, levies were peasants. And the work of a single peasant for a single day... probably wasn't worth thousands of ducats, like the single days work of a wizard absolutely is.

So, I think your lack of knowledge of how wealth and classism works is showing.


Hey! You insists on 5ed. I bring a 5ed system (in which levies and taxation can be paid (in previous edition) with work too). I just followed your own train of thoughts.

5e =/= Waterdeep. Also, small village where this is still all happening =/= waterdeep.

So far we have talked about: Greyhawk, Krynn, The Realms, Athas (Darksun) and even the planes and real world. I know it can be confusing but hey! You change setting according to your liking. Why can't I. And on the plus side, the legal system of Waterdeep was reprinted and explained in details in Dragon Heist.

To my knowledge this example of a jail cell has never once taken place in Kyrnn or Athas. You were the one who insisted it had to follow the real world medieval logic because otherwise "what is the point" (you even had a discussion about it with Faolynm involving mentioning your daughter)

Now, if you want to claim that you can switch into or out of any possible setting because at some point in the thread it was mentioned, even though it was never brought up in the context of this example... well, I wouldn't be surprised. you've moved the goal posts so much they might as well be in the Indy 500.

Well, in the Realms, high level casters are almost legions.
And yes, kill them is the simplest answer. But for "political" prisonners, a nice temporal stasis is always a good thing to do.

Uh huh, sure, because again just throwing exorbitant amounts of money at a problem is standard.

So you can do it but not me? Not a very fair position you have there. 5ed has no rules for kingdoms and similar simulations. Either homebrew or refer to older material to do it. Until we have a clear rule book for that, I guess we're stuck.

The prices of things are standarized and set out. I don't care that you don't like it and feel like you should be able to ignore those numbers because they are inconvenient.
 

Okay and? You asked how peasants can afford beer and to live. I pointed out that unskilled labor is paid 2 silvers a day, the same as a poor life style. Coming at me with adventurer stats is meaningless, we aren't talking about adventurers. And, even if we were, living expenses for adventurers is far more flexible than that.



And we aren't talking about player's expenses, so who cares?



What? Not letting you bully me into ignoring the rules of the game?



Which is why I didn't bring it up. You did.



Yeah, CO2 exposure can kill you... by suffocation. Take a gander at some EPA and other sites on the dangers of fire extinguishers.



The only mention of temperature is in how they prevent fires, any health risks are from toxic chemicals or over-exposure to CO2 gases, which can cause people to suffocate or die from over-exposure to the gases. Not from it getting cold.

Maybe you should do a little research.



There is no lack of current rules. The prices are all listed. I will admit, there are no rules for tax rates, but that is something that is going to vary greatly depending on numerous factors, and so there isn't really a good reason to include it. But the rules do not provide any "NPC discount" and that is not because those rules are lacking, but because they are not intended.



Ah yes, all those patriots willing to spend massive amounts of money to imprison a single man. Enough to be a state-run prison system. Well, since you can make up rich patriots, I'll make up rich people who want to be paid for their unique services that can't be compelled by force. Which is more historically supported I wonder? Rich people gleefully giving away their money, or rich people holding onto their money?




How many of those levy soldiers were nobility? Oh wait, levies were peasants. And the work of a single peasant for a single day... probably wasn't worth thousands of ducats, like the single days work of a wizard absolutely is.

So, I think your lack of knowledge of how wealth and classism works is showing.




5e =/= Waterdeep. Also, small village where this is still all happening =/= waterdeep.



To my knowledge this example of a jail cell has never once taken place in Kyrnn or Athas. You were the one who insisted it had to follow the real world medieval logic because otherwise "what is the point" (you even had a discussion about it with Faolynm involving mentioning your daughter)

Now, if you want to claim that you can switch into or out of any possible setting because at some point in the thread it was mentioned, even though it was never brought up in the context of this example... well, I wouldn't be surprised. you've moved the goal posts so much they might as well be in the Indy 500.



Uh huh, sure, because again just throwing exorbitant amounts of money at a problem is standard.



The prices of things are standarized and set out. I don't care that you don't like it and feel like you should be able to ignore those numbers because they are inconvenient.
1) For C02 extinguishers. You can get frost burn if somebody uses it too close to you. The safe distance is about 12 inches. At all time, avoid spraying the face as you could suffocate the person you are attempting to save. This is from the CSS course on firefighting services.
2) Some industrial extinguisher have liquid CO2. These are not you run of the mill extinguishers and might require two men to handle. (I know that those we have at our powerplant will not be easily moved by one man. These are to be used only on electrical fires and never on a person. The goal is here is to remove oxygen form the electrical sub/zone. At 14.5 KV, you do not want to get in there,in the even of a fire and not without protection even normal circumstances.
3) So yes, I do know how extinguishers works.

As for the rest..
Cold whether you like it or not is unlikely to harm a stone wall or an iron grate in the explosion caused by a cold rune. It takes a lot of time in nature for cold to destroy stone and it requires liquid water in the cracks. This is what we call erosion.

For Waterdeep is not D&D...
Tough luck, it is the default setting. Yes the village might not have the same legal system, but it is safe to assume something similar. And who knows? Waterdeep's influence extends far more than its mere walls. If you read carefuly there are many small villages that are defended by Waterdeep's patrols. A corrupt official, under Waterdeep's jurisdiction (or any big government or organisation) would ensure that you would not even get to jail in the first place. Especially if he got his hands on you and beat you up.

As for my knowledge of how wealth and classism is disputed.
I will assume you were talking about medieval. My knowledge is quite fine (but can always be improved). So far, you have shown that you are the one that do not really know how it really worked out. You assume a superior noble would always get money from taxes where it was not the case. Yes, the taxman existed, yes lands were taxed by the acres but nobles had the choice off paying most of their taxes in goods and services. And sometimes, goods and services were all they could afford if times were rough. There were even taxes for owning and oven and chimney. This is why most medieval houses had one big room with the oven in the middle and the chimney. Having more than one chimney for heat alone in a house was consider a luxury that most could not afford.

And you may apply those prices in the PHB but again, these are prices PCs are expected to pay. This is not how a real economy would work. Adventurers pay higher prices simply because prices could change depending on if you are from the village or not. A simple customer comming from afar and unlikely to get back would be paying a bit higher (sometimes quite a bit) than the local that comes often. Prices in medieval times were haggled all the time until an agreement was reached. In modern times we lost this habit of haggling but it was quite alive and well and it lasted in occident until the industrial revolution. But do not take my words, make your research. You'll get the same results.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
1) For C02 extinguishers. You can get frost burn if somebody uses it too close to you. The safe distance is about 12 inches. At all time, avoid spraying the face as you could suffocate the person you are attempting to save. This is from the CSS course on firefighting services.

And frost burn can't kill you. And the "safe distance" from the cold trap you have proposed is 20 FEET which is 240 inches, a bit further than 12, and the entire zone is INSTANT DEATH, not just frost burn. So... likely it is colder.

2) Some industrial extinguisher have liquid CO2. These are not you run of the mill extinguishers and might require two men to handle. (I know that those we have at our powerplant will not be easily moved by one man. These are to be used only on electrical fires and never on a person. The goal is here is to remove oxygen form the electrical sub/zone. At 14.5 KV, you do not want to get in there,in the even of a fire and not without protection even normal circumstances.

Huh, this seems really rather different than "Take CO2 that you find in extinguisher. They can kill, they're pretty darn cold and guess what? They will not harm a gypse wall, much less a concrete wall or a stone wall. Your point is utter BS."

It is almost as though you had to shift from CO2 in an extinguisher to Liquid CO2 in an industrial strength extinguisher. And yes, I imagine that is quite a bit colder than the normal CO2 in a normal fire extinguisher. And a fairly high chance of damaging things that are suddenly taken from 80 degrees to -110 degrees.

As for the rest..
Cold whether you like it or not is unlikely to harm a stone wall or an iron grate in the explosion caused by a cold rune. It takes a lot of time in nature for cold to destroy stone and it requires liquid water in the cracks. This is what we call erosion.

I am aware of erosion. But you are thinking in terms of 10's of degrees of cold, which isn't enough to kill a person in six seconds. 8d8 cold damage is enough to freeze a person solid, which generally marks you in the -300's of degrees or lower. Glyph of Warding is 5d8, which is not that far from the 8d8 mark, and can still kill a person near instantly.

For Waterdeep is not D&D...
Tough luck, it is the default setting. Yes the village might not have the same legal system, but it is safe to assume something similar. And who knows? Waterdeep's influence extends far more than its mere walls. If you read carefuly there are many small villages that are defended by Waterdeep's patrols. A corrupt official, under Waterdeep's jurisdiction (or any big government or organisation) would ensure that you would not even get to jail in the first place. Especially if he got his hands on you and beat you up.

No, Waterdeep is not the default setting of 5e DnD. You might be able to argue the Forgotten Realms is, but while this may be news to you, there are more cities in the Forgotten Realms than Waterdeep, and not all small villages are under Wasterdeep's protection.

And again, this is a sudden change in the example, we went from "some region" to "of course I was talking about the default setting of Waterdeep, and the villages under it's protection". See, you took "the sheriff of a small village" and decided to make it "the government of the large city which runs the region". This is why I keep saying that you are far too controlling. Because you can't even allow the original proposition to stand, you have to force it to change until it is in the place you want it to be, so you can refuse it.

As for my knowledge of how wealth and classism is disputed.
I will assume you were talking about medieval. My knowledge is quite fine (but can always be improved). So far, you have shown that you are the one that do not really know how it really worked out. You assume a superior noble would always get money from taxes where it was not the case. Yes, the taxman existed, yes lands were taxed by the acres but nobles had the choice off paying most of their taxes in goods and services. And sometimes, goods and services were all they could afford if times were rough. There were even taxes for owning and oven and chimney. This is why most medieval houses had one big room with the oven in the middle and the chimney. Having more than one chimney for heat alone in a house was consider a luxury that most could not afford.

Let me phrase it this way. No matter how many taxes he owed, would you expect the Duke of Cornwall to be asked by the King to work as a scribe in the fishing village of Polperro, notating their catch of the day? Do you think someone as powerful as the Duke of Cornwall would agree to such a ridiculous demand?

You can go on and on about how nobles were expected to provide services to the crown to pay their taxes, but the brutal truth of the matter is that people as rich as this wizard you have proposed are, didn't go to tiny villages to do menial labor. I'm not assuming the wizard would get money, and pay his taxes in coins. I'm assuming that a powerful and rich individual wasn't forced to service jail cells in the middle of nowhere. If they did provide services, they did so in far more important venues. Like the Royal Palace.

And you may apply those prices in the PHB but again, these are prices PCs are expected to pay. This is not how a real economy would work. Adventurers pay higher prices simply because prices could change depending on if you are from the village or not. A simple customer coming from afar and unlikely to get back would be paying a bit higher (sometimes quite a bit) than the local that comes often. Prices in medieval times were haggled all the time until an agreement was reached. In modern times we lost this habit of haggling but it was quite alive and well and it lasted in occident until the industrial revolution. But do not take my words, make your research. You'll get the same results.

And you will find zero mention of that consideration in the rule books. Is it true for the real world? Sure, but DnD isn't the real world. There is nothing that states that traveling from abroad gives you different prices, or that nobles pay different prices, or any of the things you keep trying to argue for.

If you want to homebrew it, fine, but you can't say that the rules aren't there when they clearly are.
 

And frost burn can't kill you. And the "safe distance" from the cold trap you have proposed is 20 FEET which is 240 inches, a bit further than 12, and the entire zone is INSTANT DEATH, not just frost burn. So... likely it is colder.
There are different types of frost burns and coolant will kill you if you're unfortunate enough.


Huh, this seems really rather different than "Take CO2 that you find in extinguisher. They can kill, they're pretty darn cold and guess what? They will not harm a gypse wall, much less a concrete wall or a stone wall. Your point is utter BS."
On the contrary, extreme sudden cold will not harm inanimate object unless the temperature difference is extremely high. A heated refractory wall is almost like stone or concrete and extreme heat or cold will not harm it unless the temperature difference is in the thousand. There are heatcurves to respect to dry the refractory but once these are done, you can pretty much heat them up quite fast. Colding is even faster.

But to see refractory stone litterally explode, you need much more that what you imply in here. So much that liquid nitrogen do not even harm stone but will fragilize it. If allowed to heat slowly it will be as if nothing had happened. (and here slowly is to determined, could it be 10 minutes? 20 minutes? I don't really know as I have never done this experiment.) Hey, glass can support sudden extreme cold without any trouble. As you pour liquid nitrogen, the glass does not suddenly go boom!

It is almost as though you had to shift from CO2 in an extinguisher to Liquid CO2 in an industrial strength extinguisher. And yes, I imagine that is quite a bit colder than the normal CO2 in a normal fire extinguisher. And a fairly high chance of damaging things that are suddenly taken from 80 degrees to -110 degrees.
Nope, these were the ones I had in mind all along because guess what? This is what I am working with all the time. And the link you provided also speak a lot about powder extinguisher. Almost every notes are on these. Not much on CO2 extinguishers. Sometimes, your line of work makes you forget that others are not necessarily working in the same line of work as you. I plead guilty on that one.


I am aware of erosion. But you are thinking in terms of 10's of degrees of cold, which isn't enough to kill a person in six seconds. 8d8 cold damage is enough to freeze a person solid, which generally marks you in the -300's of degrees or lower. Glyph of Warding is 5d8, which is not that far from the 8d8 mark, and can still kill a person near instantly.
Which brings us back to liquid nitrogen that will not harm glass but will kill the poor person that is unfortunate enough to be immerge in it...


No, Waterdeep is not the default setting of 5e DnD. You might be able to argue the Forgotten Realms is, but while this may be news to you, there are more cities in the Forgotten Realms than Waterdeep, and not all small villages are under Wasterdeep's protection.
For the moment, all adventures written has been with Waterdeep in mind save two? Hey, we even get the SCAG, this is the only "official" setting we got unless you count Ravnica, Theros and Tal Dorei.

And again, this is a sudden change in the example, we went from "some region" to "of course I was talking about the default setting of Waterdeep, and the villages under it's protection". See, you took "the sheriff of a small village" and decided to make it "the government of the large city which runs the region". This is why I keep saying that you are far too controlling. Because you can't even allow the original proposition to stand, you have to force it to change until it is in the place you want it to be, so you can refuse it.
Ok. Let's keep to the village. What tells you that there is not 5th level casters in it able to cast that damn spell and that does it whenever it goes off? Nothing. You simply can't hand wave this as this is not yours to say but the DM's.


Let me phrase it this way. No matter how many taxes he owed, would you expect the Duke of Cornwall to be asked by the King to work as a scribe in the fishing village of Polperro, notating their catch of the day? Do you think someone as powerful as the Duke of Cornwall would agree to such a ridiculous demand?
No, but the duke will send a scribe that works for him to do the job. And if the demand comes from the king he will send the scribe with pleasure.

You can go on and on about how nobles were expected to provide services to the crown to pay their taxes, but the brutal truth of the matter is that people as rich as this wizard you have proposed are, didn't go to tiny villages to do menial labor. I'm not assuming the wizard would get money, and pay his taxes in coins. I'm assuming that a powerful and rich individual wasn't forced to service jail cells in the middle of nowhere. If they did provide services, they did so in far more important venues. Like the Royal Palace.
Wizards did not exist. So we can't know for sure aren't we?
And 5th level isn't that high level. Quite easy to do.
Wizards are not the only ones able to provide this service. Clerics can too.
If we take a small village described, most priest in a small village church will be able to cast this spell. In fact, if you follow the rule and only have access to the MM (and no splat book) all priests in a church are fifth level (not counting acolytes) so all priests in a small village can and will provide this service. And in a small village, that service might come up what? Once a year? Once every two years? Maybe even less? Jails were not that often used for reasons I told you about.


And you will find zero mention of that consideration in the rule books. Is it true for the real world? Sure, but DnD isn't the real world. There is nothing that states that traveling from abroad gives you different prices, or that nobles pay different prices, or any of the things you keep trying to argue for.
This is what we call a convenient approximation to hasten gameplay. Do you imagine if players were litterally forced to haggle everytime they wanted to buy something? This would remove precious play time. So conveniently, we abide by the convention that in the PHB, the players are expected to pay these prices. And guess what? In some adventures, these prices are higher than what the PHB states for "reasons".

If you want to homebrew it, fine, but you can't say that the rules aren't there when they clearly are.
They are there for the players. Not the NPCs.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
There are different types of frost burns and coolant will kill you if you're unfortunate enough.

Well, I can't find any evidence that shows frost burns killing people... ever. The closest I can get is the obvious "if your heart starts freezing you'll probably die" but that isn't frost burn. I've also got no idea what you mean by "coolants". Many of those are dangerous because they are toxic, not because they are cold. The ones that are dangerous because they are cold are in the -100's of degree area like I was talking about previously.

Additionally, if you are thinking of gangrene and sepsis caused by necrotic tissue that can be created by a frost burn... that isn't the frost burn killing you, that is the resultant infection killing you weeks later.

On the contrary, extreme sudden cold will not harm inanimate object unless the temperature difference is extremely high. A heated refractory wall is almost like stone or concrete and extreme heat or cold will not harm it unless the temperature difference is in the thousand. There are heatcurves to respect to dry the refractory but once these are done, you can pretty much heat them up quite fast. Colding is even faster.

But to see refractory stone litterally explode, you need much more that what you imply in here. So much that liquid nitrogen do not even harm stone but will fragilize it. If allowed to heat slowly it will be as if nothing had happened. (and here slowly is to determined, could it be 10 minutes? 20 minutes? I don't really know as I have never done this experiment.) Hey, glass can support sudden extreme cold without any trouble. As you pour liquid nitrogen, the glass does not suddenly go boom!

Can you point me to wear I said "it explodes"? I said it would damage it. There is a difference between "damage" and "exploded" I also said it would especially damage it where the iron or steel bars are in the stone. I would like to remind you that metal heats and cools at different rates than stone.


Nope, these were the ones I had in mind all along because guess what? This is what I am working with all the time. And the link you provided also speak a lot about powder extinguisher. Almost every notes are on these. Not much on CO2 extinguishers. Sometimes, your line of work makes you forget that others are not necessarily working in the same line of work as you. I plead guilty on that one.

One of my links was powder, the other wasn't.

But yeah, talking about a liquid CO2 extinguisher was not anywhere near what I got from your original point.

Which brings us back to liquid nitrogen that will not harm glass but will kill the poor person that is unfortunate enough to be immerge in it...

Well, there is a difference between submerging in it for a biological being and being sprayed with it.

Additionally, it CAN harm glass, if there is any flaws in it. I would hope that you are aware that scientific professional grade glass instruments are not the same material as the glass you can buy at Walmart. That's why certain glass (like Pyrex) is safe to put in the oven and heat to 300 degrees, and some glass will break if you do that.

Not that most people who are using Glass with Liquid Nitrogen are using scientific tools that are also meant to be utilized over Bunsen Burners. Which can heat the material to hundreds of degrees.

For the moment, all adventures written has been with Waterdeep in mind save two? Hey, we even get the SCAG, this is the only "official" setting we got unless you count Ravnica, Theros and Tal Dorei.

Or Eberron. But wow, that sure is convincing. It is the only setting we have except the four other settings. And "all" adventures take place there...

Except for Witchlight, or Candlekeep, or Descent into Avernus, or Frostmaiden, or Curse of Strahd, or Ghosts of Saltmarsh or Tomb of Annhilation... huh... that's seven... and aren't there only like 14 adventures that have been released. So, like half of them easily don't have "waterdeep" in mind at all? And I know for a fact that Storm King's Thunder and Rise of Tiamat have you traveling quite extensively. In fact, only two of the adventures actually address Waterdeep as a place you will definitely go. Which is a bit different than "all but two"

Ok. Let's keep to the village. What tells you that there is not 5th level casters in it able to cast that damn spell and that does it whenever it goes off? Nothing. You simply can't hand wave this as this is not yours to say but the DM's.

That would be the Player's Handbook, on page 159. To Quote:

"Hiring someone to cast a relatively common spell of 1st or 2nd level, such as cure wounds or identify, is easy enough in a city or town, and might cost 10 to 50 gold pieces (plus the cost of any expensive material components). Finding someone able and willing to cast a higher-level spell might involve traveling to a large city, perhaps one with a university or prominent temple."

Note how it talks about cities and towns, followed by large cities. Note how a small village is not a town, a city or a large city. Yes, I'm aware that the DM can change anything at any time for any reason, but since I would fully expect as a player that 3rd level magic would be found in large cities, not tiny villages, it would seem like the DM is altering the rules just to play the "gotcha" game.

So, does the DM get to decide? Sure. Do they have any reason other than petty spite to decide that 3rd level magic is now trivially found and utilized in small villages? Not really.

No, but the duke will send a scribe that works for him to do the job. And if the demand comes from the king he will send the scribe with pleasure.

EXACTLY! Ding ding ding! He gets it! Now, I'm sure you are about to tell me that this makes me wrong. However, let us not forget your original and actual claim. That the wizard was paying HIS taxes. Not that he was sent to pay some noble's taxes, but that they were his taxes being paid.

Something you finally acknowledged makes no sense.

Now, I'm sure you are going to start pivoting, making this all about a servant wizard being sent by a noble whose taxes he is paying off. Which was not your original example. In fact, originally before it was about taxes, it was that the Sheriff could trivially spend 200 gold to enchant the cell himself.

So, we've moved from "the sheriff is buying a wizard's services to enchant the cells in the tiny village" to -> "The sheriff is benefiting from the wizard paying his taxes in the process of enchanting the cells in the tiny village" to -> "The sheriff is benefiting from a wizard being sent to cover a noble's taxes by enchanting the cells in the tiny village"

And why are these cells in this tiny village being enchanted again? Oh, right, because potentially they could be used to house a spy or criminal. So they are willing to blow hundreds of gold on death trapping every cell in the region.

And all this, because I said a corrupt sheriff beat someone. Not that they ever went to jail, but that they were beat. But you aren't controlling or anything, trying to force your will upon a character that isn't yours. I mean you've only changed the location, the setting, the price, then reasoning, the situation, the people involved... You know... ALL OF IT.


Wizards did not exist. So we can't know for sure aren't we?
And 5th level isn't that high level. Quite easy to do.
Wizards are not the only ones able to provide this service. Clerics can too.
If we take a small village described, most priest in a small village church will be able to cast this spell. In fact, if you follow the rule and only have access to the MM (and no splat book) all priests in a church are fifth level (not counting acolytes) so all priests in a small village can and will provide this service. And in a small village, that service might come up what? Once a year? Once every two years? Maybe even less? Jails were not that often used for reasons I told you about.

Except for the repeated truth that not all priests and acolytes have access to spellcasting, which is repeated over and over and over again in the PHB. And the fact that limiting it to the PHB you still have to immediately have a caveat of not counting the acolytes.

But sure, we have no historical evidence that powerful and influential people weren't forced to do menial labor that is a massive waste of resources. I mean, except for all the times that didn't happen in human history. I guess we have all of those.

This is what we call a convenient approximation to hasten gameplay. Do you imagine if players were litterally forced to haggle everytime they wanted to buy something? This would remove precious play time. So conveniently, we abide by the convention that in the PHB, the players are expected to pay these prices. And guess what? In some adventures, these prices are higher than what the PHB states for "reasons".

They are there for the players. Not the NPCs.

And you literally have no proof that says the prices change when NPCs buy things. Nowhere, anywhere in the PHB or DMG does it state that you should discount prices for NPCs.

Again, you can homebrew it. But that doesn't make it the rules.
 

It occurred to me recently that demon/devil lords seem to be a middle ground in awfulness, and so if you wanted to create a distinction between archfiends and evil gods a good place to start would be to clear out all the gods that occupy this middle ground (such as gruumsh, lolth, erythnull, etc) and leave only the ones that are semi-acceptable (Hextor, Nuitari, etc) and the ones that are world-ending monstrosities (ie. Tharizdum, Takhisis, etc)
 

Voadam

Legend
It occurred to me recently that demon/devil lords seem to be a middle ground in awfulness, and so if you wanted to create a distinction between archfiends and evil gods a good place to start would be to clear out all the gods that occupy this middle ground (such as gruumsh, lolth, erythnull, etc) and leave only the ones that are semi-acceptable (Hextor, Nuitari, etc) and the ones that are world-ending monstrosities (ie. Tharizdum, Takhisis, etc)
Not quite sure what you mean by middle ground awfulness. Are you saying you do not consider Orcus as awful as Takhisis?

And taking out The Demon Queen Lolth to make room for demons seems a bit odd. :)
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
It occurred to me recently that demon/devil lords seem to be a middle ground in awfulness, and so if you wanted to create a distinction between archfiends and evil gods a good place to start would be to clear out all the gods that occupy this middle ground (such as gruumsh, lolth, erythnull, etc) and leave only the ones that are semi-acceptable (Hextor, Nuitari, etc) and the ones that are world-ending monstrosities (ie. Tharizdum, Takhisis, etc)

I'm not entirely sure I follow your example, but I can sort of see the main thrust of it. Correct me if I'm wrong but it would seem you want to have the semi-acceptable ones like Hextor remain gods, but the world-enders to become more like Archdemons?

I could get behind that, because I think that we have long noticed the issue with Evil Extraplanar entities and gods that they just don't make much sense to worship. As presented, no one in their right mind worships Tharizdun, because he wants to destroy everything and leave nothing but an empty void.

And I think part of the reason this sort of changeover hasn't happened before was this very... Judeo-Western view that "God" is a term that denotes a supreme level of power, and specifically makes them more powerful than their foes, the Demons. I think that assumption is why many of these massive threats and world-ending monstrosities are called "gods", because they must be supremely powerful to fill their roles, and only "Gods" can be supremely powerful.

I think once you step away from that assumption, and allow power to just be power, it suddenly becomes much easier to put "monster of destruction" in one category, "world ruling tyrants" in another category, and start sifting through the entries and have less of this "middle ground" you are thinking of
 

Voadam

Legend
I could get behind that, because I think that we have long noticed the issue with Evil Extraplanar entities and gods that they just don't make much sense to worship. As presented, no one in their right mind worships Tharizdun, because he wants to destroy everything and leave nothing but an empty void.
Cthulhu mythos cultists worshipping mythos entities that ultimately are hostile to human life are a trope and a staple.

Often big mythos entities are considered gods, though you could conceive of them as not-gods depending on the paradigm/definition used.

Most of the worshipers are considered not in their right minds, but the evil cult is generally a standard.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Cthulhu mythos cultists worshipping mythos entities that ultimately are hostile to human life are a trope and a staple.

Often big mythos entities are considered gods, though you could conceive of them as not-gods depending on the paradigm/definition used.

Most of the worshipers are considered not in their right minds, but the evil cult is generally a standard.

Yeah, the "in their right mind" was supposed to account for that. Yes, the insane or deranged worship these beings... but there is a limited pool of those type of people, and it already gets stretched a bit thin.
 

Voadam

Legend
There is also the model of the evil serpent god Set in the Conan World.

An evil state religion, the priests number powerful sorcerers. Set does not seem to offer people good stuff other than his priesthood being powerful and state sanctioned.Following him seems cultural for a whole society as well as for the power hungry.

There is also the question of whether serpent Set is really Yig from the Lovecraft Mythos with the mixing of the two by the authors. A bit different than real world non serpent Set who fights off Apep every night as the serpent tries to devour Ra the Sun god.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
There is also the model of the evil serpent god Set in the Conan World.

An evil state religion, the priests number powerful sorcerers. Set does not seem to offer people good stuff other than his priesthood being powerful and state sanctioned.Following him seems cultural for a whole society as well as for the power hungry.

There is also the question of whether serpent Set is really Yig from the Lovecraft Mythos with the mixing of the two by the authors. A bit different than real world non serpent Set who fights off Apep every night as the serpent tries to devour Ra the Sun god.

Yeah, can't say I'm too familiar with Conan, but "give me the power to rule others and force them to worship him" is a pretty decent gig.

But I also thought most of Conan was additionally, "None of these false spirits are true gods" which likely also played into the presentation of their cults.
 


Voadam

Legend
Yeah, can't say I'm too familiar with Conan, but "give me the power to rule others and force them to worship him" is a pretty decent gig.

But I also thought most of Conan was additionally, "None of these false spirits are true gods" which likely also played into the presentation of their cults.
There are multiple things going on there.

It is not clear to me that Set gives his priests any powers. Some of them are sorcerers, that does not necessarily mean Set gives them, or is the source of, their powers.

Some of the gods in the stories turn out to be a physical monster that Conan kills, I think there is a big spider one.

There are weird things. And powers. And lots of stuff from the stars. And a lot of mystery and unexplained stuff. And some deliberate cross-pollination between Howard and Lovecraft in their writing.

I enjoyed a lot of the stories and the comics.
 


Mirtek

Hero
Well, I can't find any evidence that shows frost burns killing people... ever. The closest I can get is the obvious "if your heart starts freezing you'll probably die" but that isn't frost burn.
What? That's like saying "if your heart starts burning you'll probably die"

Frost burn will kill you just as burns do. It's even classified with the same 4 categories from First to Fourth degree.

In both cases forth degree with damage your muscles, tendon, and bone. Get enough of your skin damaged by third degree frost burn and you'll die from that already.
 

What? That's like saying "if your heart starts burning you'll probably die"

Frost burn will kill you just as burns do. It's even classified with the same 4 categories from First to Fourth degree.

In both cases forth degree with damage your muscles, tendon, and bone. Get enough of your skin damaged by third degree frost burn and you'll die from that already.
Well, but how quickly. Spells tend to deal lots of damage in one fell swoop. At best they'd last 6 seconds, but considering that 6 seconds is the time for an entire round, if you die at the start of your turn on triggering a spell and don't get to do anything else after you're dead, it seems questionable that an "explosive" spell even needs the entire 6 seconds. It's more like a bullet to your head then dying from any kind of exposure.

This whole discussion of whether you could escape the death from a corrupt sherrif that beat you up once is kinda amusing. But the answer is pretty obvious. Yes, you can. Anyone that tries to argue otherwise probably forgot what the topic of the thread was and is either just amusing himself or a lost cause.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
What? That's like saying "if your heart starts burning you'll probably die"

Frost burn will kill you just as burns do. It's even classified with the same 4 categories from First to Fourth degree.

In both cases forth degree with damage your muscles, tendon, and bone. Get enough of your skin damaged by third degree frost burn and you'll die from that already.

Do you die from the cold or from the infection that will result? Third Degree burns destroy multiple levels of skin and strip away that defense from your immune system, causing massive infections that can ravage the body.

Also, unlike fires, cold can't catch your fat layer on fire and spread to be worse, or begin eating through your organs. Yes, extreme heat and extreme cold can both kill you, third degree burns are horrific, but it is rarely an instant death that takes place within 6 seconds, and generally caused by other factors.
 

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