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D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

Yes, it should be considered. One of the only forms of System Shock from Cold that we have is the Cold Shock of being submerged in water. Here's a link


Most of the causes of death? Drowning, either because you gasp and breath in water, or you fall unconscious and hypothermia from staying in cold water for MINUTES kills you.

And you still haven't addressed the undeniable fact that 8d8 cold damage in the spell Cone of Cold specifically talks about being frozen solid. It takes a stupid amount of cold to freeze a body solid in seconds. Instead, you keep talking about things that will cause secondary effects which will kill you. You can keep denying it, but the cold from DnD cold spells is EXTREME.
A system shock can come from many causes. Cold isn't the only one. Sever trauma can result in one. If your arm gets cristalized by cold, you can bet that you will enter into one. This is accounted for in the damage.

And resistance does jack all to prevent damage, it just lessens the damage. Which will still build up over time and will eventually require the walls and bars to be replaced. And it could easily be dank or even humid in the jail cell. Climate Control doesn't exist and it is always possible for this glyph to be activated during a rainy day.

And of course you would give it immunity, I'd expect nothing less after you've fought so hard to try and prove it would be immune to damage. That doesn't mean i have any reason to agree with you, especially since you are so clearly biased.



Impurities and imperfections. Tell me, how many jail cells are going to be made of smooth stone? Is it going to be made out of granite or out of Quartzite? Are we talking about hand-sized bricks and mortar or man-sized stones?

You declare confidently that a jail will be made out of good quality stone... but we are talking about a small village that may not have a single stone building, so no, the jail cell might not even be made of stone, because small villages didn't have those sorts of resources, they used wattle and daub, or cob, or clay.

And, again, I like how you keep going from "damaged" to "destroyed". You can keep acting like you don't read my posts, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to forget my own words.
1) Yes I would give it immunity unless some special condition would allow for "resistance" only. I am perfectly within my rights as a DM.
2) Plaster can be put on stone. In fact, many exposed house foundations (stone or concrete) are recovered in that material as it prevents water damage (and incidentaly winter damage). Do not believe Holywood on how cells were made.
3) The jail will probably be the only stone building in the village. Barring a small temple/shrine.
4) You know that concrete was in existence even in the Egyptian era? Even in a medieval fantasy setting, concrete can be a thing.

Originally it was that all character put in jail were hanged the next day, medieval laws and all that. You SPECIFICALLY said you wanted medieval laws as justice. Then when I pointed out that no one is going to be putting this sort of security up for drunks and pickpockets (you know, small village and all, it isn't like there is a bunch of major crime) you switched gears and said that pick-pockets might not be that important but criminals would be. When I pointed out that that statement is ludicrious, because pickpockets ARE criminals, you started turning to Waterdeep's laws to start saying that, against your own earlier point that all criminals would be hung within a day or two of going to jail, that in Waterdeep and its controlled regions that was different.

And since then you have been pounding this drum, we are playing in Waterdeep, Waterdeep is the place that matters, the laws of Waterdeep are our model for all possible settings. Even though I keep reminding you that... not everywhere is Waterdeep and Waterdeep's laws are not necessarily going to apply to everything.
1) A jail is not made for one type of crime alone.
2) If you go to a modern jail, they do not make one jail for rapist, one for killers, one for robbers and so on. You can have a maximum security jail and a normal jail. In a setting in which magic is relatively available, one such cell is quite reasonable as the glyph might not be triggered in years.

And once more you try and shame me into not pointing out your own hypocrisy by making this about 1st edition, or 2nd edition and how I clearly am wrong for going into 5th edition without an encyclopedic knowledge of these older editions, when all I am proving is... the laws of one city are not universal as the laws of every possible city, town and village in every single setting.

And know you want to try and hide behind something as basic as "cities would have similar laws". Would they? Sure, murder and theft are generally illegal, but the punishment for stealing a waterskin in the swamp is likely different than stealing one in a desert. Maybe a place has the death penalty for crimes, maybe it is maiming, maybe it is slavery, but you keep insisting that all places share Waterdeep's laws, which is laughable.
You are the one saying that all cities would share laws. They would have similarities. That is my claim. And yours too as I can see. Of course different culture might have "different" crimes and punishment. But basicaly, it would be the same in effect.


So? Your statement that you seem to be willfully ignoring was "For the moment, all adventures written has been with Waterdeep in mind save two?" Just because you can adapt it doesn't mean that Greyhawk is in Waterdeep.

So, yes, I do care that you seem to have no idea where anything is located, yet you constantly try and shame and lecture me.
Reread the posts. You are the one claiming Waterdeep. I admit you sidetracked me, but I claimed Realms. Forgotten Realms.


No, I said their legal system isn't guaranteed to be Waterdeep's legal system. Which it isn't. Some places might have similar laws? Of course they might, but that isn't a guarantee, and we KNOW that it isn't true of all places.
And? That does not prevent a legal system of some sort to exists. If you assume corrupt. Then the system must be reasonably close to Waterdeep. I do not think Thay would have the same system and the corrupt in Thay means that the Sheriff would have saved you from the gallows pole. So a corrupted officer must be working against the law. So it is safe to assume that you are good, he is evil. (No evil characters in my games)


Like say, the fact that you originally claimed that "You know that jail in these times (medieval) was not the same as jail in ours. Very rarely would a prisonner survive. They would not care to give sustenance to the person unless that, from that person they could muster some ransom for. If not, you were not beaten up, but simply hanged, publicly in a matter of a day or two."

So, unless death would be near... like the near certainty of being hanged in a matter of a day or two? Or starving to death because no one bothered to bring sustenance?

Again, your own arguments defeat your own point. If I know my options are to starve to death, die in a few days from hanging, or try to escape and hope that the wizard that services the jail of Mudville hasn't been called since the last person was in here... well even if I'm wrong it is a quicker and less painful death.
But you might be there waiting for a fair trial. You might be the drunk thrown in there for the time you get sober again. You might... you see the point, but refuse to see it. Again, with a corrupt official you'd be simply dead.



Funny, last post you were all "logic, logic tells us this" and now it is "This is fantasy, abandon all logic, anything goes". IT seems that once more it is only your own opinion that matters, and the facts will change to support you now matter what.
Logic always applies until it doesn't. Extremely convenient isn't it?



It could be, or it could be in the middle of the boonies. But let me ask you, how many times can your PCs travel without you rolling a potential random encounter that could include monsters or bandits? I'm sure for this you'll suddenly have this small unimportant village be on a road patrolled by the King's Guard and within only a mile of the capitol, but not all small villages are like that. Maybe I wanted my character to be from farther out, but I guess you'd tell me that I can't do that because reasons.
How many times do they travel without random encounters? That is a good question. In civilized area, almost always. In contested area, I usually go for 3 per day rolled for the entirety of the trek. Then I create a day where there could be up to 6 encounters (if there are that many, or if even more than 6, they would be divided into the approriate numbers of day required so that each day would be as close as possible to 6).


Representing the Crown isn't the same as being that Crown, and that isn't splitting hairs when one claim is loyal and the other is a coup.
And? Beside the obvious, do you have a point to make?



And just because you work for the mayor on paper doesn't mean the mayor is the one actually in charge, but again, having a boss doesn't mean you suddenly have more money than you did before.
Chain of command.




So is this a second admission that you are just dragging this out to troll me? That you don't actually believe any of this and are just trying to "get back at me" because of some perceived slight or dislike of how I post?
No, I claim to use your own method. So far I fare quite well.

I mean, you are starting to just flat out lie at this rate, so it wouldn't shock me, but you'd think you'd let someone like @Maxperson in on the fact that this is just a ruse to punish me.
????????????? Why do you bring Maxperson into this?


I was using this 30 cell model when I estimated those costs. That alone was enough to put this wizard as extremely wealthy, and it is a severe lowball estimate. Instead of celebrating my simulationist abilities, maybe you should acknowledge that your claims are just ludicrous.
Not really. I found that your claim of 30 cells like that were a bit exagerated but believable. With my math it is even more cost effective than I first thought!


And how many kings who thought that way bankrupted their countries? Oh, right, all of them? I mean, spies being in a tiny village with nothing of importance are unlikely enough, but putting anti-spy measures there at huge costs just because is insane.
With your cell estimations and my math, you proved that it was not that costly.



Because your "rules" seem to exist solely to control me for no other reason than your own need to assert dominance. None of this has been reasonable at any level, it is just attempts at forced obeisance.
Wrong. Dead wrong. The rules are there to insure a quick start. You do not create your character at home and then start to play. We all (you included) get to vote on what type of campaign we wish, the optional rules we will use, the type of party the players want and then we jump into character creation (all this takes about an hour, top. Sometimes when everyone agrees with due haste, it takes about 20 minutes). This leaves us with much more time to play.


Yeah, I remember you claiming that. Funnily enough I even brought up how strange it was that in a discussion involving 2 people I seemed to keep getting outvoted by "the group" even though the majority would be us agreeing with each other.
I use the current agreed upon method. I already told you that. So for the moment, character backgrounds are limited to the PHB and the rolls (or choice) you make on these tables. That is all you get.



No, yet again, this is a strawman and a blatant ignoring of my actual post. In fact, you again literally just contradicted yourself and agreed with my actual post.

You before: "In fact, if you follow the rule and only have access to the MM (and no splat book) all priests in a church are fifth level (not counting acolytes) so all priests in a small village can and will provide this service."

Me before: "Except for the repeated truth that not all priests and acolytes have access to spellcasting"

You Now: "Not all, but some. And these some are called priests."

So, if you ignore the DMG and PHB then you can make a ludicrous claim, one that you no longer stand by as you try and shift me from saying "not all priests" to "no priests" Again, strawmanning my actual position.
Again, both a yes and no.
A church may not have an all cleric worshippers. But all casters will probably be clerics (unless impostors or people taking the mantle while a true cleric comes to take the place). A "priest" in the MM is in p.348 if you want to check. NOT a cleric, A priest! So by def, all priest can cast spells. Funny how in some posts you claim the MM is important because it supports your views and in this one, you decide to ignore it.

There are a lot of positions in a church/temple that do not require spell casters. The janitor is one of these. The provisionner is an other one and you know that there are a lot more. Temple guards, accolytes, neophytes and yaddi yadda. Working at a temple does not mean you are a cleric. But being a priest, is defined in the MM. Being an acolyte is also defined. P. 342 of the MM. Maybe a non casting acolyte can exist because that acolyte left before finishing his full training. Maybe the acolyte did not have true faith but a simple dedication explaining why he did not became a full acolyte/priest or cleric. The acolyte background does not mean that you have achieve that status. Just that you started your life as one. If you are not a divine caster, it might simply means that you tried but changed your mind.



Uh huh, this is just a thinly veiled "I as the DM will do whatever I can to kill your character concept" You don't like me, so you are going to call anything I come up with or argue unreasonable, and twist yourself in knots to deny a concept that didn't even need denying.
Why would I not like you? I do not like your position. But not liking your position is not the same as you as a person.



So, you are relying on a marketplace existing, which in no way provides alternative "NPC only" pricing. So, again, your claim that the PHB prices are only for players and that NPCs will have different, much lower prices is just your own baseless claims, founded on rules for other games and not 5e.

Whether or not a marketplace exists doesn't mean that the prices in the PHB don't apply to all people equally.
I have nothing more that what is happening in places where the bazaar is still in places. I already said how economics works. If you do not agree with that, it is your choice. But go out in Istanbul or if you have friends from muslim countries, ask them how a bazaar works. It will be enlightening. I assure you of that. The bartering system is both an art and a passion for them. We, in the occident, lost that tradition but we are starting to see it rise again in the used market and in flea market.

Edit: And for the not liking you postion...
This is very far for from the truth. It is not because I do not like your position that I do not like you. In fact, I do appreciate some of your positions (not in this post obviously) and in some cases, It made me think about how I/we do things in our games and even reconsider our ways of doing things. @Maxperson actually changed my mind on a few occasions, @Oofta too. Even @Umbran made me think about quite a few things I took for granted. @Charlaquin made me think hard on some occasions too and made me change my mind or adapt some of my stances.

The point is, if I were not to like you. You would know. I now use your debate methods because you keep rejecting to see a post in its entirety and nitpick on sentences or even words. I prefer to argue on the intent instead of a particular word or sentence but I am perfectly capable and willing to adapt. You nitpick, I can do it too. I am using your own methods and all of a sudden, you see me as not liking you...

And all this started because I would not allow such a background in my current game. And yet, I some other campaign, that background would work simply because at that time, the players were starting around level 5 and decided to write full background on what went before. The main point of my arguement is the following: "A player must follow the accepted guidelines at a given table." Wheter these guidelines are imposed by the DM, voted upon by the players has no bearing on the fact that a player can not impose his or her will onto a table.

A player must inform him(her)self of the current rules, books used and allowed at character creation at a table that person is joining. Is that hard to accept?
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
????????????? Why do you bring Maxperson into this?

I note this isn't an answer to the question. So, I'm mostly going to start ignoring this. You'll probably drag me into a third round, because I'm a sucker, but this seems to be a clear indication to me that, yes, you are just trolling.

Some evidence of this?


1) Yes I would give it immunity unless some special condition would allow for "resistance" only. I am perfectly within my rights as a DM.
2) Plaster can be put on stone. In fact, many exposed house foundations (stone or concrete) are recovered in that material as it prevents water damage (and incidentaly winter damage). Do not believe Holywood on how cells were made.
3) The jail will probably be the only stone building in the village. Barring a small temple/shrine.
4) You know that concrete was in existence even in the Egyptian era? Even in a medieval fantasy setting, concrete can be a thing.

Huh, going from "stone" to "concrete" now. Which isn't stone. Sure, some forms of concrete were used in Egypt and in Rome. They weren't used in Medieval Europe, as the recipe was lost like so many other things.

But, huh, it is funny how every time we look at what "medieval europe" really was like, you switch it up and start relying on it being fantasy. You can't keep a consistent line.


But you might be there waiting for a fair trial. You might be the drunk thrown in there for the time you get sober again. You might... you see the point, but refuse to see it. Again, with a corrupt official you'd be simply dead.

Huh, you looked directly at your own claim that people would die in jail because no one cared for them and you'd be hung in a day or two anyways, and now that that isn't convenient you start talking about fair trials. I'd bring up the medieval legal system of magisters, but you'll either claim that Waterdeep is different (which doesn't matter because this isn't Waterdeep) or start saying how it is a "fantasy" game and therefor it doesn't matter.

Because your own points don't even matter to you. And you'll dismiss your own arguments in favor of a new argument just so that you can't be wrong.

No, I claim to use your own method. So far I fare quite well.

Ah, I missed this the first time. Since I don't make up things just to be convenient and dismiss my own words, or make claims that are blatantly false then ignore that fact... no, you don't argue like me. And your attempts to just keep insulting me are just tiresome.


Why would I not like you? I do not like your position. But not liking your position is not the same as you as a person.

I don't know why the constant veiled insults and put-downs give me the feeling you don't like me. Gosh golly, it sure is a mystery.


And all this started because I would not allow such a background in my current game. And yet, I some other campaign, that background would work simply because at that time, the players were starting around level 5 and decided to write full background on what went before. The main point of my arguement is the following: "A player must follow the accepted guidelines at a given table." Wheter these guidelines are imposed by the DM, voted upon by the players has no bearing on the fact that a player can not impose his or her will onto a table.

A player must inform him(her)self of the current rules, books used and allowed at character creation at a table that person is joining. Is that hard to accept?

Do you even remember the point I was making with this background? It was a super simple one, the whole corrupt sheriff thing was just throw-away fluff. The real point was making a character who came from outside the region that the rest of the party was supposedly coming from.

Interestingly enough, no books tell me what region I can come from. I don't see how an "accepted guideline" for a normal game is that I'm not allowed to make my own backstory and decide my own hometown. You and everyone else gets to vote on where I can come from, which backgrounds are acceptable, which classes are acceptable, obviously which races I can pick. Where do I get to make a decision? And you've berated me again and again, not over my actual point which was the region-locking, but over how escaping from a corrupt official is impossible.

You did this by changing the backstory (limited to barely a sentence) and then using the altered version to say my original idea was impossible. Based on me somehow joining your table and being subjected to votes that I've never been a part of.

And then you dare to say that you are just "arguing like I do" as you increasingly just flat out lie and shift the goal posts to make yourself the eventual winner. All the while telling me how unreasonable it is I want to decide details of my own character's backstory.
 

I note this isn't an answer to the question. So, I'm mostly going to start ignoring this. You'll probably drag me into a third round, because I'm a sucker, but this seems to be a clear indication to me that, yes, you are just trolling.
And I am not. The main point of this line is: Can you follow guidelines in character creation. For me it does not seem so.


Huh, going from "stone" to "concrete" now. Which isn't stone. Sure, some forms of concrete were used in Egypt and in Rome. They weren't used in Medieval Europe, as the recipe was lost like so many other things.

But, huh, it is funny how every time we look at what "medieval europe" really was like, you switch it up and start relying on it being fantasy. You can't keep a consistent line.
Did you ever heard of parallel evolution? To same problems, same solutions?
Medieval Europe had lost a lot of knowledge due to wars and so and so.
But is it the case for a fantasy world? In fact, it was not even the case everywhere. China was stagnating but still had all its tech.
Medieval and renaissance Europe are the basis for D&D though. But D&D has something that this world never had. Magic. They can speak with their dead. Find old secret through spells and divinations. Gods can communicate directly with their worshippers.
My line is extremely consistent if you follow it.
Fantasy world are not limited by what ours was. Magic is the high tech of the fantasy world and many of the world's problems will be solved by some application of magic. Be it to discover a better way to do things or to compensate for a lack of mundane solution.
Take for example the gold standard. In medieval, the standard was silver, with copper and bronze being the most common coins for the masses. By making gold the standard, it sparkles our imagination but it also taints how we see the values of things in the D&D world.

Take the plate mail. It is worth 1500 gold. Takes 30 days to create (10 days for a smith with two apprentices) and it costs 750 gold in raw material. But which raw materials?
Iron and steel costs how much... 65 pounds is the plate's weight. This means about 60 pounds for the metal alone as leather straps are needed (and judging by the cost of leather, this is even an over estimation). An iron pots weights 10 pounds. So 10 pounds of iron is about 1 gold to produce by smelting and molding and hammering (a pound of iron costs 1 silver as per PHB by the way). Assuming more or less the same weigth for the steel, it means that each 10 pounds of steel is about 1 gold too as to make steel does not require much more than a bit of knowledge and temper knowledge. For good measure, make it 2 golds per 10 pounds of steel for smelting, hammering and molding. This means that we have now 12 golds worth of metal (and melting and molding is already part of the process). What are the other materials???? The parts of the plate that are in chain mail are already accounted for, so.. the leather? Well, a full suit of leather armor already has zounds of straps and cost 10 golds... Let's assume that there is 10 gold worth of material in the material costs... We are now with a total of 22 golds in material. Assume the gambeson under the plate is the equivalent of padded so this brings us with a total of 27 golds worth of material. And that plate is not decorated, inlaid with filigrams and coats of arms yet. This is a basic plate. Where are the other 728 golds worth of material to make?
This means that a lot of the prices are not the real prices for the true economy. These are the prices for the adventurers. The smith will have to stop working on his daily projects, he will have to work double shifts and put his assistants to more work to fulfill is other "duties" or contract. This will make the price sky rocket. It takes 30 days to make, with assistants, make that 15. That is two whole weeks where the smith and his assistants will take time on the player's plate and where they will not fulfill their other contracts. The weeks ahead will see them work a lot to catch back their usual work contracts. This has a cost and and it shows. Players are paying from double to 10 times what a ruler will pay for the same thing. The prices are grossly exagerated.
But they must be paid! Will you say.
A skilled hireling/laborer costs 2 gold per day and the unskilled costs 2 silvers. Let us assume that the smith is a skilled person shall we? This means that for 15 days, it will net him 30 gold and let us assume that he will charge the time of his two apprentices 15 golds each for a total of 60 more golds. This leaves us with only 652 golds unaccounted for in the material departement.:oops:
So in essence, a plate costs about 98 golds to make, and this is counting the time of the smith and his apprentices. Let us round this to a 100 gold for convenience. This means that normaly, a plate would cost 200 golds. But it is 1500! Since the player will commission the smith into a very special contract, it means that our smith will raise the base cost by 7.5 times for his inconvenience. That sir, is a lot of profits with already exagerated material costs. Nah... these are the prices for adventurers and nothing else.

As my old DM once said: "Players need money sinks"



Huh, you looked directly at your own claim that people would die in jail because no one cared for them and you'd be hung in a day or two anyways, and now that that isn't convenient you start talking about fair trials. I'd bring up the medieval legal system of magisters, but you'll either claim that Waterdeep is different (which doesn't matter because this isn't Waterdeep) or start saying how it is a "fantasy" game and therefor it doesn't matter.

Because your own points don't even matter to you. And you'll dismiss your own arguments in favor of a new argument just so that you can't be wrong.
What are you talking about?
1) There is not only one kind of prisonners. Even you acknowledged that. A drunk can end up in jail.
2) For big crimes? Sure, if you are not hanged on the spot, you will end up in jail. Usually for as long as needed for people to get words of your hanging so that they can come and watch.
3) You might end up in jail waiting for a judge to come by and to put you in trial. Yes there were trials. But not always. If you were caught in the act by the authority, it often meant that you were done. Only if you were captured after the fact and that your innocence or your guilt rested on a witness of no noble birth would you get a trial. Yes nobles were that powerful. Why do you think the French and many others revolted against the nobility?
4) I have a very consistent approach. And yes, in a fantasy world there are bound to be differences. Afterall, it is possible to speak with the dead.
5) A corrupt official will make sure that no one will hear of it. If he caught you, your dead. Why did you not just said you were a witness to corruption and fled when you saw that you were noticed? No it was more dramatic to say you were beaten. If you see a criminal deal and that these criminals see you. You better go quick to the authorities or make yourself disapear. If they catch you, you are dead. It is not as if it does not happen even in modern times.


Ah, I missed this the first time. Since I don't make up things just to be convenient and dismiss my own words, or make claims that are blatantly false then ignore that fact... no, you don't argue like me. And your attempts to just keep insulting me are just tiresome.
? I do not insult you. It is the opposite. Since your methods are so good. I decided to use them. I pick what I want and ignore the rest.


I don't know why the constant veiled insults and put-downs give me the feeling you don't like me. Gosh golly, it sure is a mystery.
I attack your positon and method. Not you.
Again, I will say that you can bring good things. It is just your method of looking at small details and not the intention of a post that is troubling me. But hey! I can adapt and do the same.


Do you even remember the point I was making with this background? It was a super simple one, the whole corrupt sheriff thing was just throw-away fluff. The real point was making a character who came from outside the region that the rest of the party was supposedly coming from.

Interestingly enough, no books tell me what region I can come from. I don't see how an "accepted guideline" for a normal game is that I'm not allowed to make my own backstory and decide my own hometown. You and everyone else gets to vote on where I can come from, which backgrounds are acceptable, which classes are acceptable, obviously which races I can pick. Where do I get to make a decision? And you've berated me again and again, not over my actual point which was the region-locking, but over how escaping from a corrupt official is impossible.

You did this by changing the backstory (limited to barely a sentence) and then using the altered version to say my original idea was impossible. Based on me somehow joining your table and being subjected to votes that I've never been a part of.

And then you dare to say that you are just "arguing like I do" as you increasingly just flat out lie and shift the goal posts to make yourself the eventual winner. All the while telling me how unreasonable it is I want to decide details of my own character's backstory.
And it still shows that you will not follow basic guidelines in character creation at a table. Is following agreed upon guidelines so hard?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Yep, I'm still a sucker.


And I am not. The main point of this line is: Can you follow guidelines in character creation. For me it does not seem so.


And it still shows that you will not follow basic guidelines in character creation at a table. Is following agreed upon guidelines so hard?

So, can you show me where I agreed to these guidelines? Where did I agree that my character can't come from outside the region? Where did I agree that my character can't be from a village? Where did I agree to anything you keep trying to shove down my throat?

You keep saying I can't follow the "agreed upon guidelines" but you keep ignoring that I never agreed to any of this. You just assumed I did. Why? Because I wanted to talk to you therefore I must agree to your rules?

And, let's rewind back to the point of they guidelines being proposed.... what if I don't agree? What if I say I want to have a character who didn't grow up Waterdeep or whatever place, do people respect that and offer alternatives? Or do I get browbeat because "the majority" is the one who gets to decide who my character is and where they come from?

Did you ever heard of parallel evolution? To same problems, same solutions?
Medieval Europe had lost a lot of knowledge due to wars and so and so.
But is it the case for a fantasy world? In fact, it was not even the case everywhere. China was stagnating but still had all its tech.
Medieval and renaissance Europe are the basis for D&D though. But D&D has something that this world never had. Magic. They can speak with their dead. Find old secret through spells and divinations. Gods can communicate directly with their worshippers.
My line is extremely consistent if you follow it.
Fantasy world are not limited by what ours was. Magic is the high tech of the fantasy world and many of the world's problems will be solved by some application of magic. Be it to discover a better way to do things or to compensate for a lack of mundane solution.
Take for example the gold standard. In medieval, the standard was silver, with copper and bronze being the most common coins for the masses. By making gold the standard, it sparkles our imagination but it also taints how we see the values of things in the D&D world.

So, your earlier assertions about having to follow the medieval world (otherwise what is the point, you said) was... hot air. Because there is no reason to assume anything is the same in magical fantasy world.

Take the plate mail. It is worth 1500 gold. Takes 30 days to create (10 days for a smith with two apprentices) and it costs 750 gold in raw material. But which raw materials?
Iron and steel costs how much... 65 pounds is the plate's weight. This means about 60 pounds for the metal alone as leather straps are needed (and judging by the cost of leather, this is even an over estimation). An iron pots weights 10 pounds. So 10 pounds of iron is about 1 gold to produce by smelting and molding and hammering (a pound of iron costs 1 silver as per PHB by the way). Assuming more or less the same weigth for the steel, it means that each 10 pounds of steel is about 1 gold too as to make steel does not require much more than a bit of knowledge and temper knowledge. For good measure, make it 2 golds per 10 pounds of steel for smelting, hammering and molding. This means that we have now 12 golds worth of metal (and melting and molding is already part of the process). What are the other materials???? The parts of the plate that are in chain mail are already accounted for, so.. the leather? Well, a full suit of leather armor already has zounds of straps and cost 10 golds... Let's assume that there is 10 gold worth of material in the material costs... We are now with a total of 22 golds in material. Assume the gambeson under the plate is the equivalent of padded so this brings us with a total of 27 golds worth of material. And that plate is not decorated, inlaid with filigrams and coats of arms yet. This is a basic plate. Where are the other 728 golds worth of material to make?
This means that a lot of the prices are not the real prices for the true economy. These are the prices for the adventurers. The smith will have to stop working on his daily projects, he will have to work double shifts and put his assistants to more work to fulfill is other "duties" or contract. This will make the price sky rocket. It takes 30 days to make, with assistants, make that 15. That is two whole weeks where the smith and his assistants will take time on the player's plate and where they will not fulfill their other contracts. The weeks ahead will see them work a lot to catch back their usual work contracts. This has a cost and and it shows. Players are paying from double to 10 times what a ruler will pay for the same thing. The prices are grossly exagerated.
But they must be paid! Will you say.
A skilled hireling/laborer costs 2 gold per day and the unskilled costs 2 silvers. Let us assume that the smith is a skilled person shall we? This means that for 15 days, it will net him 30 gold and let us assume that he will charge the time of his two apprentices 15 golds each for a total of 60 more golds. This leaves us with only 652 golds unaccounted for in the material departement.:oops:
So in essence, a plate costs about 98 golds to make, and this is counting the time of the smith and his apprentices. Let us round this to a 100 gold for convenience. This means that normaly, a plate would cost 200 golds. But it is 1500! Since the player will commission the smith into a very special contract, it means that our smith will raise the base cost by 7.5 times for his inconvenience. That sir, is a lot of profits with already exagerated material costs. Nah... these are the prices for adventurers and nothing else.

As my old DM once said: "Players need money sinks"

So, let's look at some of the things you are utterly ignoring. First off, if you sell anything, how much do you sell it for? 1/2 cost. This is also supported by the crafting rules, you need raw materials worth half the price of the item to make it. So, all the prices are doubled. Is this realistic? Don't care. Them's the rules. Market value, sell value, crafting value.

So, your iron pot is 10 lbs for 2 gold, which is the 10 lbs for 1 gold of raw iron... except it isn't raw iron is it? It's shaped and worked iron. But let's ignore that. And you want steel to be the exact same price. So a value of... 1 lbs per 1 silver.

Now, let's take this exact same process and look at a Greatsword. Swords are almost entirely steel except for some leather wrapped around the handle. So the Greatsword is 6 lbs for 25 gold... or 4 gold and 2 silver per pound...Even if I take the silver out for the leather, now we have 4 gold per pound. What is happening?

Well.... skill, right? No actually. Because I still need 25 gold worth of iron or steel to make a greatsword, even though that is going to be 250 pounds of iron to make a 6 lbs sword... So, let me ask you this. Is an artificer or a Cleric of the Forge just suck at blacksmithing? Suck so badly that they need 41 times the actual weight of material to make a single sword? Do they have "adventuring resources" that are being accounted for? Are they getting charged exorbitant prices for iron that make it so the iron/steel they buy for a 10 lb pot is 40 times cheaper than the iron/steel they bought for a greatsword? Does the price fluctuate based on whether or not they tell the blacksmith what they are making?


No, the truth is that the system isn't well-designed. It isn't a good crafting system, it has more powerful things priced higher, even if the materials don't account for that. A mace can be 4 lbs of pure steel, and still cost 5 gold, while a rapier is half the weight but five times the cost.

Parts of it work. Unskilled labor ties directly to being poor. Aristocratic ties directly into the daily cost of a mansion. But trying to nail down the cost of weapons and armor based on weight? That isn't how it is going to work. We all know it. But know what else we know? That nowhere in the rules is it written that NPCs get discounts. Because if a noble decides to give a Cleric of the Forge the materials to make him a greatsword for free, he still needs to provide 25 gold worth of materials... which is still either hundreds of pounds or iron or very high priced iron.

And NONE of this is spellcasting services, which unsurprsingly don't have any of the same issues, because they are highly specific and again, you probably aren't getting people to work for free. If they are working to pay of some debt or tax... then they will apply their rates to that tax. You don't get to just decide that someone's labor is only worth a penny an hour when they have to work for you for taxes, instead of their normal $20 an hour labor.

What are you talking about?
1) There is not only one kind of prisonners. Even you acknowledged that. A drunk can end up in jail.
2) For big crimes? Sure, if you are not hanged on the spot, you will end up in jail. Usually for as long as needed for people to get words of your hanging so that they can come and watch.
3) You might end up in jail waiting for a judge to come by and to put you in trial. Yes there were trials. But not always. If you were caught in the act by the authority, it often meant that you were done. Only if you were captured after the fact and that your innocence or your guilt rested on a witness of no noble birth would you get a trial. Yes nobles were that powerful. Why do you think the French and many others revolted against the nobility?
4) I have a very consistent approach. And yes, in a fantasy world there are bound to be differences. Afterall, it is possible to speak with the dead.
5) A corrupt official will make sure that no one will hear of it. If he caught you, your dead. Why did you not just said you were a witness to corruption and fled when you saw that you were noticed? No it was more dramatic to say you were beaten. If you see a criminal deal and that these criminals see you. You better go quick to the authorities or make yourself disapear. If they catch you, you are dead. It is not as if it does not happen even in modern times.

1) I know, I said so, you didn't seem to care before. Now suddenly you care.

3) What does revolting against the nobility have to do with any of this? You said previously that they wouldn't get a trial. Then you started talking about trials. Now you are back to no trial. You can't seem to make up your mind on which way you want to go.

5) Because I wanted a hatred of authority that came from personally being injured by an abuse of authority. Never said I witnessed any corruption. Never said I went to jail. Said I was beat by a corrupt sheriff. That was it. You are the one who keeps adding stuff. Why do that?


Besides, this is a magical fantasy world. People can speak to the dead, so why would we not have a more robust legal system? A more modern legal system world-wide, imposed by the Gods of Law. Heck, why didn't you say it was impossible for there to be a corrupt sheriff because the God of Law would have sent an Celestial to smite them for abusing the laws and infringing on their holy domain?
 

pemerton

Legend
@Chaosmancer - I dropped back into this thread to see if I was missing anything over the past week or two. It seems maybe not?

Am I right in thinking that the discussion of death from cold is an offshoot of a discussion about whether or not it is feasible to have a 1st level PC with the background of having escaped from prison? In which case, what was already a bizarre debate (the answer seems to be obviously yes) has become even moreso.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
@Chaosmancer - I dropped back into this thread to see if I was missing anything over the past week or two. It seems maybe not?

Am I right in thinking that the discussion of death from cold is an offshoot of a discussion about whether or not it is feasible to have a 1st level PC with the background of having escaped from prison? In which case, what was already a bizarre debate (the answer seems to be obviously yes) has become even moreso.

You are correct.

It was a point brought up that the exploding glyph dealing 5d8 damage could not possibly damage the metal bars or the stone cell. I pointed out that 8d8 seems capable of freezing a man solid, which is stupendously cold (likely in the -200 to -300 ranges), so 5d8 damaging stone through thermal stresses was a likely possibility. That was countered with fire extinguishers being cold but not exploding stone walls, which were later revealed to be liquid CO2 extinguishers that require two men to operate.

And it spiraled from there
 

glass

(he, him)
Wow, what a thread! Having slogged through all over the last couple of weeks, I am mostly going to ignore the various side arguments. Although I will point out the hilarity of a setting with a "medieval mindset" which nonetheless has sherifs in the modern american sense (a sherif in medieval England was a much bigger deal; they would not be running a small-town gaol although they might have dungeons under their castle).

What I will say is that in my homebrew setting I have thought about the role of evil gods, and although I have not eliminated them entirely I do not have many of them. This is not because they are redundant with "archthings"* per se, but as some people have mentioned upthread there are a limited number of portfolios that are compatible with both evil and widescale worship.

In fact I have a spreadsheet listing defined gods in my setting, and exactly one (out of 51 total) is evil. The spreadsheet is a WIP and is not comprehensive, but it illustrates the kind of ratio.

While I am waffling about my homebrew setting, I will mention that daemon lords (I don't really have devils or demons-without-an-A) do not have clerics. There are a few things that are not god that do have clerics (great big dragons sleeping inside the world are one example), but fiends have warlocks.

_
glass.

* Great word!
 

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