Reversing that again to archfiends being openly and even proudly worshipped... I've actually done that in my campaign already. Do to some inter-party shenanigans, alliances between party members, and some major plot points, a potential future for my homebrew world involved elves openly worshiping the new Lady of the Fifth, The Fallen Huntress Tana. She offered them bloody vengeance against the mindflayers for horrific crimes against the elven people, and was friends with the party member who was basically an elven Arthur, rebuilding the empire and bringing it back to glory... and openly stating that they would allow legal worship of the devils.
So, since you've done it in your campaign, it must be common throughout D&D?
Sure, you can tell any story you like if you change the basic premises of the beings involved. And in D&D, one of the basic premises is that fiends aren't openly worshiped outside of evil communities.
At this point, if there's
enough worship of Tana, then maybe she is no longer a fiend and has become a god--just like how Lolth started as a demon queen and became a god as well as a demon queen. She may not have started out wanting or needing worship, but now she does.
It seems to me that the reason you think evil gods and archfiends are redundant is because you have already combined them into a single type of entity, and you don't get that many of us treat them as separate entities with separate abilities and separate goals.
Sorry, I can easily picture an Evil God of contracts, who treats his worshippers in a Pax Romana style of transactional worship. I can only grab part of the article (I heard about this in a video) but to give this context from the Britannica "Yet Roman religion was based not on divine grace but instead on mutual trust (fides) between god and man. The object of Roman religion was to secure the cooperation, benevolence, and “peace” of the gods (pax deorum)."
So, under this style of religion, a contract between man and god is expected.
Does this contract between man and god require you to sign it in blood? Is it made at the crossroads on a moonless night? Do you swear away your soul from where it's
supposed to be going? No? Then it's not that type of contract and you know it.
They don't typically, but is there any reason they can't? I can easily imagine an evil god attempting to spread their influence and weaken their rivals by putting their own influences and iconography into the worship of another god. And mocking other god's beliefs and practices is easily done as well. In a way, we do it all the time.
I'd say they don't do it because there would be too much risk of an evil god's own worship getting perverted or reduced, especially in a setting where gods are influenced by the beliefs of their worshipers and where gods rely on prayer.
And, flipping it, I see no reason that Demonic Cultists can't do forced conversions or murder. They are pretty good at both, actually. So, again, I don't see this as a story that is impossible to tell with the opposite type of being. It isn't typical, I will give you that, but an atypical story doesn't mean it can't be done or that it can't be done well.
Because as I've already said, fiends don't care about worshipers, they care about souls. Forced conversions or murders aren't going to get them souls. They get souls of evil people in general, or of people who sign contracts with them.
Gods care about souls.
Right here is one of the major differences between gods and fiends, maybe the biggest one: gods die without belief; fiends don't.
And, since I've gone through a few of these, I'll go ahead and clarify again. I'm not saying your ideas are bad. I'm not saying these ideas are wrong. I'm not trying to convert you to the "one true way". I'm not trying to "gotcha". I'm honestly looking at each of these examples and asking "is it possible for me to tell this story with the opposite type of being" and each time so far... yes, it is.
And that's the same as saying "I can tell this story with either giants or dragons, so there's no need for both." Or "I can tell this story with either elves or dwarfs, so there's no need for both."
You can also have it where the fiends ARE part of the natural order. Japanese Yokai embody this entirely. They are evil spirits, but they are a natural part of the world. A part of the world that desires to harm you, that enjoys harming you, but the world isn't a kind place.
Yokai can also be seen as fey, considering they're part of the natural world.
In fact, one of your earlier ideas in this thread (I think it was you) inspired a dark gothic world in my head where the fiends are natural and the gods are unnatural, and the natural state of the world is one of darkness, blood and terror, and the unnatural gods are preventing this state of primal darkness.
That wasn't me, I don't think, but I like it. Maybe it was me; I have a bad memory.
Which has always been a bizarre story to me. I would have to admit though, the "archfiend is trying to become a god" story is one that can't be swapped like I've been doing...
Except, the larger archetype of the story is "powerful evil being is trying to become more powerful, and we must stop them". I bring this up, because the famous 2e Vecna three-part adventure involves Vecna (a god) tricking Iuz (a demigod/god) to entering his domain, so that he could consume his power and become an even greater and more terrifying god in his bid for the control of all of reality by conquering Sigil.
Yeah, that was a stupid adventure arc. It was also stupid when he wound up in Ravenloft. The writers just liked Vecna and wanted to stick him everywhere they could. He
shouldn't have been able to get into Sigil since gods can't enter the city (if he was a god at that point), and while the Dark Powers may actually be more powerful than gods, they're more about inventing their own gods than trapping them.
There's no canonical benefits that I know of of a god choosing to also become an archfiend. If it wants control of an entire layer in a lower plane, it can attempt to seize the layer by force. Many evil gods already have fiendish servitors. They don't gain any more powers by becoming a fiend, but they
do have their life force tied to one or more soul amulets, which is probably a step down for them considering that gods can only
truly be destroyed if they lose all their worshipers.
All of this can be done with Evil Gods. Endless war between Magbuliyet and Gruumsh is very similar in style to the Blood War. Coups can happen to gods. Happens pretty regularly in various fictions.
Sure. But Maglubiyet and Gruumsh are two gods (or rather, the heads of two pantheons of gods), and their battles rage across Acheron (and there, I think just part of one layer) and, to a much lesser extent, the Prime. But in the Prime, should goblins and orcs battle, it's as likely to be over territory and resources and just general jerkiness as it is to be because their gods tell them to. The Blood War is fought across almost the entirety of the lower planes
and can spill out into other planes. Certain layers of certain planes get it the worst, but no lower plane is spared.
And sure, coups can happen--but again, in D&D, it's far more likely to happen with fiends.
Also, things like this may happen in various fictions, but do they happen in D&D? D&D tells different stories than novels do, because you can't control the actions of the players.
Wow, a lot to unpack here.
Petionersin a god's domain want to be there? Okay. But they are an evil god right, so it is still terrible and likely torturous place.
Yes, because the petitioners want to merge with the plane. From the Planescape campaign setting:
"At best, a petitioner has a shadowy recollection of a precious life, but little or nothing useful can be learned from these fleeting images. Petitioners mostly desire to attain some ultimate union of with the powers of their plane. This can be accomplished in a number of ways: good works, serene contemplation, steadfast faith, or vile notoriety, depending on the petitioner's alignment."
Unlike in some real-world religions, petitioners who go to an evil god's afterlife aren't there to be punished. It's their reward. It may not be great by your standards, but the people who go there are literally happier their then they would be in one of the upper planes.
And Archfiends can have the same story.
Again, you're homebrewing here. "Can" isn't the same as "actually have been written this way."
I actually had a player recently who was playing a Hell Knight, they wanted to go to the Nine Hells when they died, so they could become an eternal soldier fighting for the cause of proctecting (conquering) the multiverse. Many cultists want to go to the hells or abyss because they think they will come out on top, and they are often proven wrong... but there is no reason that same thing can't be true for an evil god's domain.
Souls that don't belong in the evil realm of the evil god/Archfiend? Yep, that story can and has been told with both types of beings. That is the entire trope behind unwilling human sacrifices after all. And adventurers can go to rescue from either place.
The souls that wind up in an archfiend's domain aren't the souls of worshipers, for the most part. They're souls that were stolen or bought. When the Wall of the Faithless was a thing, demons would steal souls out of it.
I'm pretty sure that the souls of human sacrifices in D&D go to the plane they're supposed to, unless magic was used to make sure the soul goes to the realm of the being it was sacrificed to.
And again, you're using "it stands to reason" as your claim here. No, sorry, you can't make stuff up and say its canon.
Also, I don't even agree with your final point. Gods also have a lot of use for living beings and use them as proxies all the time. And living beings can be held captive or in enforced servitude by evil gods or by archfiends. No difference in that story.
Those are incredibly different things. A proxy isn't a slave or even a servant. It's an extension of the god's will. With rare exceptions, a person
wants to be a proxy; it's an honor to be chosen. With evil gods, it means better standards of living and a chance for promotion. Proxies are servants, but not slaves or prisoners. You can't compare the two at all. Also from the Planescape campaign setting: "
Some Outsiders think every planar's a proxy, but that just ain't true. Proxies are those beings--primes, planars, and even petitioners--specially chosen to act as agents of the powers. Usually, the body chosen is transformed into a creature favored by the deity--into an evil rutterkin or a good deva, for example. On rare occasions, the being isn't transformed, but is bestowed with special powers. Proxies are absolute servants, obeying the wishes of their deity as fully as is appropriate to that alignment. Those of good powers are unswervingly loyal and obedient, and those of evil powers are utterly difficult and tricky, even for their masters. On the Upper Planes, a proxy knows he can rise even higher through good service. On the Lower Planes, a proxy usually prospers by finding some clever and nasty way to create an opening for his high-up man."
These are all excellent plots. But all of them could be switched and told from the other side. So, again, to reiterate, the question asked was "What story can you tell with an Evil God that you cannot tell with an Archfiend?" and the only one you provided is an archfiend trying to become an evil god.
OK, let's go the other way around now, since I admit I mostly did fiends but not gods.
Literal holy wars. Whether it's god v. god, god v. fiend, or something else, you can't do a holy war with at least one side involving gods. This can be a battle between faiths or protecting (or seizing) holy ground. The Blood Wars, BTW, are
not (un)holy wars; they're wars of chaos v. law and of racial supremacy. Even the war between Maglubiyet and Gruumsh aren't really holy wars, because they're mostly about racial supremacy.
The death of a god. What ramifications does it have for the world? In some settings, it means that whatever it is the god represented no longer functions. No more winter, no more people dying, no more functional forges, whatever. It could mean that all of a sudden lots of entities grab on to bits of the portfolio, like in Pratchett's
Reaper Man. It could mean that whatever the god controlled now runs wild, free, and uncontrolled. The god of winter dies and now it snows whenever the heck it wants to. Or perhaps whatever the god controlled now acts
naturally. Perhaps the existence of the god of murder spurred people into murdering each other for even minor things, but if that god died, then maybe people don't find themselves quite as prone to murder as they used to. The god of winter dies and now it snows only in winter, only when the temperature and humidity is correct (you know, like in the real world), rather than whenever the god got bored and decided to dump a blizzard on someone.
How about those two?
