D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
For reference:



FWIW, I favour the idea of a qualitative difference between archfiends and evil deities, but I wouldn't suggest that early AD&D was in any way consistent in this approach and I freely admit I'd be pressed to explain exactly what those actual differences were.

Thats it isn't it. D&D says there is a difference but most of designers, especially of the older days, were so inconsistent that there is tons of evidence on both sides because fans who cared about upper world building was a small minority until recently.
 

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Voadam

Legend
By homebrewing it, sure. Or by using a setting that isn't connected to the Great Wheel. At the time of Planescape's publishing, every was part of the Great Wheel and used it.
I don't remember any specific references to 2e Lankhmar in Planescape stuff or vice versa. 2e Lankhmar City of Adventure was 93 and The original Planescape boxed set was 94. Nehwon's Godsland and Shadowland do not seem to be part of the Planescape Cosmology.

Planescape does say it encompasses everything though and references legends and lore for gods, which includes the Nehwon pantheon. Warriors from Heaven which lists powers of the upper planes in 2e Planescape does not list any from the Nehwon pantheon however (for example it does include Ilmater from FR, but not the Nehwonian Issek who Ilmater is based off of).
 

Voadam

Legend
Thats it isn't it. D&D says there is a difference but most of designers, especially of the older days, were so inconsistent that there is tons of evidence on both sides because fans who cared about upper world building was a small minority until recently.
I don't think caring about upper world building is a recent thing. I think the huge amount of sprawling material throughout editions is more an indication that a lot of different people cared.

Upper world building has been a thing in D&D materials for a long time. OD&D had Eldritch Wizardry detailing demons and demon princes and stating how Orcus's wand "causes death (or annihilation) to any creature, save those of like status (other Princes, High Devils, Saints, Godlings, etc.), merely by touching their flesh." so laying a foundation for the general power level in the cosmic order of the most powerful demons. OD&D also had Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes to give sample god powers and stats. This continued to get more detailed in upper World Building with more specific god rules in the 1e PH and DMG clerical casting rules, more detailed in Deities and Demigods with expansions of god divisions and powers and specific planar homes, expanded to include Quasi- and Hero-Deities in 1e Greyhawk Boxed set, and then placing gods from DDG throughout the default planes in the 1e Manual of Planes and making more refinements about god-like non-gods. 2e got heavily into it as well with their Legends and Lore and Planescape and there was tons of upper world building in different ways in 2e including changing the god-status of archdevils and major developments of the Forgotten Realms deity situations in sourcebooks and novels.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Other than Dark Sun (which I think does tie in to Planescape) none of those settings existed in or before 2e.

Never mind that Planescape, by its very nature, has carte blanche to hoover up any setting it wants... :)

Right, but Faolyn said "as of 2e" meaning 2e and everything that came after
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Devils being worshipped out in the open and by lots of people. If you homebrew such changes, any redundancy issues that crop up are of your own creation.

Right, so I homebrewed Iuz the Evil? Oh wait, he's a demigod and just the son of a demon. I'm sure that Graz'zt isn't worshiped at all in his kingdom, right?

Saughin, I must have homebrewed them. Gnolls, Ixchitl, man, I sure went back in time and homebrewed a lot of different things.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In 1st ed AD&D the "Great Wheel" is in Appendix IV of the PHB, and then developed further in DDG. The MM takes it largely as given, and so does the DMG. But Dragonlance didn't use the Great Wheel. I think everyone understood that the Great Wheel was a framework - perhaps a default framework - but not mandatory or core in the same way that (say) hit points and saving throws are. Changing the planar structure is more like changing encounter tables - themselves found in an appendix of the DMG, Appendix C.
This is true and not true at the same time. Dragonlance had it's own limited cosmology. The 1e Dragonlance Adventures book does not tell us much about the cosmology, but at the end of the section on the gods, it has a paragraph about heathen clerics from worlds far removed, so clerics from other settings could get there. That means that even if it has it's own limited cosmology, that cosmology is linked to the great wheel in some manner.

3e is where the cosmology becomes strange and more unique. It would still have access to the rest of the multiverse through portals to Sigil, though, which has portals to everywhere. Like Dark Sun and Eberron, access to the rest of the cosmos is highly restricted.

I would note, though, since you give weight to Dragon Magazine articles, that Dalanar, Elminster and Mordenkainen met on Toril as The Wizards Three to exchange spells and magic items.
I have no idea how Planescape differentiates evil gods from demons - in Dead Gods, which is one of three Planescape books I own, they aren't distinguished given it contains a 12th level cleric of Orcus!
Planescape says that some Demon Lords have become gods through having worshippers, but it's hard for them to get them since they are not gods in the first place. It says specifically...

"To achieve true greatness, the lords require shrines, followers, and priests. What stops the lords from gathering them? Here's the chant: Through the lords like to let on that they are as great as the powers, they have less to offer their servants than the true powers do. They can't appear as avatars, and they can't offer a full range of priestly spells. So how do they get followers? In return for loyalty and even worship, the Abyssal lords offer power, tanar'ri servants, and dark knowledge.

More commonly, the lords send servant tanar'ri to serve their followers, and offer them direction along the path of darkness. Most bashers are offered gifts, cursed or evil magical items, and the like.

True believers can gain 1st- and 2nd-level priest spells through their faith alone. The lords have nothing to do with this minor magic, though of course they claim credit for it. If they've got reason worth weakening themselves for, the lords can send their greatest proxies - the true tanar'ri - to grant 3rd level spells to their priests. More powerful magic is usually beyond the lords: they can grant 4th-level spells, but only in person. Only the greatest Abyssal lords - those who've actually become powers in their own right - can grant 5th- through 7th-level spells."

So we can see that while they can have priests and even grant up to 4th level spells, they are not actual gods. Only those who become real evil deities can grant 5th or higher level spells. Demon Lords(and presumably the devil version) are some sort of almost deity.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I don't remember any specific references to 2e Lankhmar in Planescape stuff or vice versa. 2e Lankhmar City of Adventure was 93 and The original Planescape boxed set was 94. Nehwon's Godsland and Shadowland do not seem to be part of the Planescape Cosmology.

Planescape does say it encompasses everything though and references legends and lore for gods, which includes the Nehwon pantheon. Warriors from Heaven which lists powers of the upper planes in 2e Planescape does not list any from the Nehwon pantheon however (for example it does include Ilmater from FR, but not the Nehwonian Issek who Ilmater is based off of).
OK, everything but Lankmar.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Right, so I homebrewed Iuz the Evil? Oh wait, he's a demigod and just the son of a demon. I'm sure that Graz'zt isn't worshiped at all in his kingdom, right?
The conquered didn't suddenly all start worshipping a demon demigod. He still had only small amounts of worshippers as evidenced by his being a DEMIGOD. Graz'zt isn't even a demigod.
Saughin, I must have homebrewed them. Gnolls, Ixchitl, man, I sure went back in time and homebrewed a lot of different things.
Still not the massive amounts of worshippers openly following demons and devils like you described. Nice try, though.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I don't think caring about upper world building is a recent thing. I think the huge amount of sprawling material throughout editions is more an indication that a lot of different people cared.

Upper world building has been a thing in D&D materials for a long time. OD&D had Eldritch Wizardry detailing demons and demon princes and stating how Orcus's wand "causes death (or annihilation) to any creature, save those of like status (other Princes, High Devils, Saints, Godlings, etc.), merely by touching their flesh." so laying a foundation for the general power level in the cosmic order of the most powerful demons. OD&D also had Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes to give sample god powers and stats. This continued to get more detailed in upper World Building with more specific god rules in the 1e PH and DMG clerical casting rules, more detailed in Deities and Demigods with expansions of god divisions and powers and specific planar homes, expanded to include Quasi- and Hero-Deities in 1e Greyhawk Boxed set, and then placing gods from DDG throughout the default planes in the 1e Manual of Planes and making more refinements about god-like non-gods. 2e got heavily into it as well with their Legends and Lore and Planescape and there was tons of upper world building in different ways in 2e including changing the god-status of archdevils and major developments of the Forgotten Realms deity situations in sourcebooks and novels.

I didn't say it wasn't a thing.
I said a minority of the fanbase put emphasis on it or made it a priority until recently. It was an afterthought that was fixed to match other higher priority elements.
 

Voadam

Legend
I didn't say it wasn't a thing.
Right I was disagreeing on the minority then versus now part.
I said a minority of the fanbase put emphasis on it or made it a priority until recently. It was an afterthought that was fixed to match other higher priority elements.
Right, I am not seeing the basis for your assertion that it was a minority in say 2e times and that now is a different percentage of fans putting an emphasis on it.
 

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