D&D (2024) 4e design in 5.5e ?

[Undrave]

There are dozens of mechanics riddled throughout D&D that are naturally "dissociated" unless given a clear in-character explanation. Few, if any, settings provide such explanations. The Alexandrian never had a problem with any of those things. However, when 4e comes along, THEN it becomes a problem. That's blatant special pleading.

I'd bet anything Mr. Alexandrian is a Wizard player ...

It's not there already?

Hit dice, short rest abilities, and at will cantrips don't count?

Hit dice come woefully short of Healing Surge in term of use and impact. They only LOOK similar.

So a mechanic that says, you can trip someone 4 times per day feels disassociated for me (why only 4 times?), whereas saying they have a 20% of tripping an opponent if they try seems more consistent within the fiction.

Hmm... Now there's something interesting... What if every time a warrior hit, you also roll on a separate d100 table and depending on the result you can choose to apply an effect depending on the roll? Like if you roll above 30 you can push five feet, you roll past 40 you can slide them 5 feet, roll past 50, you can knock them prone, roll 95+? You can stun them! And for all of those you can decide to use a lower effect if its more beneficial.

 

[TwoSix]

Yep, the best critiques of 4e came from people who liked 4e but recognized it had room to improve.

Yea, 4e definitely has some issues, even though I still really like it.

1) Too many feats, too many magic items. 4e's main problem was that it had TOO many axes of customization. You had race and racial powers, class, theme, paragon path, epic destinies, picking class powers, and then picking feats and magic items all to synergize with those powers. Drop feats that gave numerical bonuses, only keep feats that allow for new power picks (like MC powers), and get rid of all incremental bonus magic items.

2) Too many powers at higher levels. Personally, I would have dropped class powers past 11th level. Theme and class powers for heroic tier (themes like Dark Sun or Neverwinter with actual powers should have been in the game from the outset), then only gain PP powers at Paragon, and only add ED powers at Epic.

 

[niklinna]

Hmm... Now there's something interesting... What if every time a warrior hit, you also roll on a separate d100 table and depending on the result you can choose to apply an effect depending on the roll? Like if you roll above 30 you can push five feet, you roll past 40 you can slide them 5 feet, roll past 50, you can knock them prone, roll 95+? You can stun them! And for all of those you can decide to use a lower effect if its more beneficial.

That's...actually kind of interesting. While gated behind a die roll, it represents chance opportunities in the chaos of combat. If it were in addition to abilities you can use when you want, it would be a fun addition!

 

[Ovinomancer]

So, just looking this up now, it seems that healing potions required available healing surges to be useful? What is that supposed to represent in the fiction? Are healing potions just glasses of water?

To me, that seems too transparent as other people are saying, in that the game is very obviously telling you that you will have access to X amt of healing and no more, because it does not want encounters to become unbalanced. Whereas in basic/AD&D, doing things to unbalance encounters (say, hoarding healing potions) was the objective.

No, because healing surges were not freely accessible -- you could tap one in an encounter with a second wind, but that was it. Every other invocation was through a power or item. Healing potions unlocked the ability to tap a healing surge, with more represented a pool of resolve and grit than a pool of healing. This goes to what hitpoints even represent and so what replenishing them meant.

I mean, coffee wakes you up, right, but if you drink a cup of coffee after 3 days awake, it's not going to have much effect because you don't have anything left in the tank. Coffee is the catalyst, not the source. So it goes with 4e healing potions.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That's...actually kind of interesting. While gated behind a die roll, it represents chance opportunities in the chaos of combat. If it were in addition to abilities you can use when you want, it would be a fun addition!

I'm not sure I see what the benefit is -- why can't I trip every attack? Because I didn't roll high enough on this table? How is that functionally different from you don't have any more uses of the trip ability until you rest? Both are not things my character is doing, but rather reference to mechanics that gate what my character is allowed to do. The only difference I see is that the table is random and the power use is volitional.

 

[TwoSix]

So, just looking this up now, it seems that healing potions required available healing surges to be useful? What is that supposed to represent in the fiction? Are healing potions just glasses of water?

Healing magic draws upon the life essence of the recipient in order to massively accelerate the healing process, but that essence can be drained with enough magic use. It's a fairly common trope in fantasy fiction.

 

[Charlaquin]

And this is a great example of presentation vs mechanics.

Presentation wise, your right there are narrative differences between surge and hit dice.

But mechanically? They are extremely similar. Both represent "a finite reserve of recovery" that requires some measure of "rest" to utilize. They are of course not exactly the same, healing surges scaled based on hitpoints and were mainly based on class/con score. Hit Dice are mainly based on level with some adjustment based on class. Also most healing in 4e required surges, so it was possible to be "unable to heal". In 5e, magical healing does not require hitdice, so healing is "theoretically infinite" with the right resources.

But its quite clear that the hit die concept came out of healing surges, they mechanically serve a very similar purpose.

No, they are presented similarly but their gameplay function is completely different. Hit dice provide a baseline amount of hit point recovery that you can use without access to magical healing. Their gameplay function is to allow you to heal without requiring a cleric or potions. Healing surges provided a limit on the amount of healing you could receive from magical sources. Their gameplay function was to control the total number of hit points characters could utilize in an adventuring day. You really can’t get more functionally different than “extra healing in case you don’t have a healer” and “a cap on your daily healing.”

 

[Lanefan]

Healing surges (which are rather poorly named) represent your inner reserves and form a central part of narrative of combat in 4e. Combat in 4e is all about finding your inner strength and working together to overcome what should feel like incredible odds. Almost all hit point recovery is built around inspiration and rallying which is why it's limited by healing surges. You had the strength all along. Getting knocked down and getting back is a constant fixture of the combat model.

This leans very hard into the idea of hit points as fluff rather than hit points as meat; the exact opposite of 1e where hit points (given the natural recovery times) are generally all seen as meat.

IMO the only way to functionally combine these two outlooks is a wound-vitality or body-fatigue h.p. system, where there's a clear designation between fluff h.p. and meat h.p. and in how they are ablated, cured, rested back, etc. Bloodied from 4e is a small step in that direction.

 

[niklinna]

I'm not sure I see what the benefit is -- why can't I trip every attack? Because I didn't roll high enough on this table? How is that functionally different from you don't have any more uses of the trip ability until you rest? Both are not things my character is doing, but rather reference to mechanics that gate what my character is allowed to do. The only difference I see is that the table is random and the power use is volitional.

That's why I said it would be an interesting addition to volitional powers, reflecting happenstance opportunities. I don't see this as tied to a class, but to an action—anybody doing a melee strike might get the opportunities given as examples. Anyhow, it was just a quick comment; in the end, this idea is more or less just a different kind of crit table, which 5e doesn't do.

 

[TwoSix]

No, they are presented similarly but their gameplay function is completely different. Hit dice provide a baseline amount of hit point recovery that you can use without access to magical healing. Their gameplay function is to allow you to heal without requiring a cleric or potions. Healing surges provided a limit on the amount of healing you could receive from magical sources. Their gameplay function was to control the total number of hit points characters could utilize in an adventuring day. You really can’t get more functionally different than “extra healing in case you don’t have a healer” and “a cap on your daily healing.”

Yep.

Full hit points and 0 Hit Die in 5e doesn't have any impact on the lethality of the next fight.

Full hit points and 0 Hit Die in 4e is the screen flashing red and saying "Blue Warrior is about to die!"