D&D 5E What Would Your Perfect 50th PHB Class List Be?

I don't think anyone writing Monk is expecting yet another poorly designed monk.
I wrote Monk, but what I want and what I expect are two different things. I do expect another poorly designed monk, because, imo, that is what has happened in every edition to date.
I also wrote cleric, but I expect another poorly designed cleric as well. ;)
 

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I wrote Monk, but what I want and what I expect are two different things. I do expect another poorly designed monk, because, imo, that is what has happened in every edition to date.
I also wrote cleric, but I expect another poorly designed cleric as well. ;)
wait what is wrong with cleric? as I half agree with you on monk.
 

wait what is wrong with cleric? as I half agree with you on monk.
what I want from the cleric is in my list (I think post 99) which is only a few posts above. I mention what I am looking at the top of the post- the class split into two or a rewrite. Toward the bottom section of the post, I expand on what I would want.
 

Warrior (excels at combat)
Rogue (excels at exploration)
Mage (excels at magic)

Optionally, a social/support focused class: the Envoy (excels at support/social).

From there, pick your Subclass (modifies playstyle) and Power Source (e.g., Arcane, Divine, Primal, Martial, Psionic, etc.) and its associated spell/power list (if applicable).

For example:

Mage + Sage subclass + Arcane power source = Wizard
Mage + Sage subclass + Divine power source = Cleric
Mage + Sage subclass + Psionic power source = Psion

Mage + Spellsword subclass + Divine power source = Warpriest
Mage + Spellsword subclass + Arcane power source = Battle Mage

Envoy + Commander subclass + Martial power source = Warlord
Envoy + Commander subclass + Psionic power source = Ardent
 
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I love these kinds of threads because they expose what the community (well, the Enworld community) thinks of classes. I've noticed a few trends on my non-scientific observations.

Class reorganization tends towards two extremes: a large collection of micro-classes (very specific classes that hold to a single concept, often split off of current classes) or very broad overclasses that can absorb multiple current classes into them, differentiated by openly flexible class features. There is a group of people who prefer the system as is (plus or minus a few classes) but most pipe-dreaming ends up on either end of the scale.

People REALLY hate the names of the current classes. Seriously! While the more cultural or archetype specific names (paladin, bard, druid, monk, barbarian) get called out frequently, there seems to be an overall desire to rename every class in the game, even fighter, wizard and rogue which are 100% descriptive of what they do.

There appears to be a trend towards what I call Final Fantasy Tactics (FFT) style class branching. That is, starting with a small pool of generic classes and expanding into more complex archetypes as you gain levels. In theory, this is to control for choice paralysis since you only have limited options to start and gradually gain more options as you go. It, however, also requires a lot of pre-planning as if you don't think ahead, you could be locked out of the archetype you wanted (akin to how 3.5 prestige classes often required dedicated character mapping to maximize benefit).

Subclass-replacing-niche-class has worked in some cases: no one is calling for an assassin base class, for example. However, there is still a dedicated group of people who want their warlords, psionics, avengers, or swordmages as base classes. If battlemaster or eldritch knight couldn't scratch the itch of warlord or swordmage fans, I can't imagine a subclass would do justice to barbarians, paladins, or rangers.

The most telling thing is that Enworld desires a more complex version of D&D, probably more so than much of the outside player base. It fits the demographics, which screw a little older, more DMish, and very DIY. The idea of a class-as-toolkit you use to build your custom PC fits right in with the game-as-toolkit you use to build your campaign/setting. Its contrasted, of course, by the simpler, curated but less flexible archetypal system that WotC opts for; with lots of options but less actual choice-points. Most PCs are fully formed by level 3-4. Campaign settings have become big money for giving DMs a curated set of options. The difference between buying a fully assembled, ready to use object and a kit with tools and instructions you can use to build your own.

Lastly, people really want their "dude with sword casting magic" classes.
 

I love these kinds of threads because they expose what the community (well, the Enworld community) thinks of classes. I've noticed a few trends on my non-scientific observations.

Class reorganization tends towards two extremes: a large collection of micro-classes (very specific classes that hold to a single concept, often split off of current classes) or very broad overclasses that can absorb multiple current classes into them, differentiated by openly flexible class features. There is a group of people who prefer the system as is (plus or minus a few classes) but most pipe-dreaming ends up on either end of the scale.

People REALLY hate the names of the current classes. Seriously! While the more cultural or archetype specific names (paladin, bard, druid, monk, barbarian) get called out frequently, there seems to be an overall desire to rename every class in the game, even fighter, wizard and rogue which are 100% descriptive of what they do.

There appears to be a trend towards what I call Final Fantasy Tactics (FFT) style class branching. That is, starting with a small pool of generic classes and expanding into more complex archetypes as you gain levels. In theory, this is to control for choice paralysis since you only have limited options to start and gradually gain more options as you go. It, however, also requires a lot of pre-planning as if you don't think ahead, you could be locked out of the archetype you wanted (akin to how 3.5 prestige classes often required dedicated character mapping to maximize benefit).

Subclass-replacing-niche-class has worked in some cases: no one is calling for an assassin base class, for example. However, there is still a dedicated group of people who want their warlords, psionics, avengers, or swordmages as base classes. If battlemaster or eldritch knight couldn't scratch the itch of warlord or swordmage fans, I can't imagine a subclass would do justice to barbarians, paladins, or rangers.

The most telling thing is that Enworld desires a more complex version of D&D, probably more so than much of the outside player base. It fits the demographics, which screw a little older, more DMish, and very DIY. The idea of a class-as-toolkit you use to build your custom PC fits right in with the game-as-toolkit you use to build your campaign/setting. Its contrasted, of course, by the simpler, curated but less flexible archetypal system that WotC opts for; with lots of options but less actual choice-points. Most PCs are fully formed by level 3-4. Campaign settings have become big money for giving DMs a curated set of options. The difference between buying a fully assembled, ready to use object and a kit with tools and instructions you can use to build your own.

Lastly, people really want their "dude with sword casting magic" classes.
you are disturbingly insight full here how have you figured this out?
 

I wrote Monk, but what I want and what I expect are two different things. I do expect another poorly designed monk, because, imo, that is what has happened in every edition to date.
I also wrote cleric, but I expect another poorly designed cleric as well. ;)
I stand corrected

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I am shocked and disappointed that there are so few tech and lore classes on this list.

I expected more "I invented a FN SCAR 165 on the weekend" nonmagical Tinkers, "Yeah baby! A gimmick that's it! High explosives!" Alchemists, and "I may be weak but my bear isn't" Beastmasters.
 

Class reorganization tends towards two extremes: a large collection of micro-classes (very specific classes that hold to a single concept, often split off of current classes) or very broad overclasses that can absorb multiple current classes into them, differentiated by openly flexible class features. There is a group of people who prefer the system as is (plus or minus a few classes) but most pipe-dreaming ends up on either end of the scale.
That's not too different from how it is now.

People REALLY hate the names of the current classes. Seriously! While the more cultural or archetype specific names (paladin, bard, druid, monk, barbarian) get called out frequently, there seems to be an overall desire to rename every class in the game, even fighter, wizard and rogue which are 100% descriptive of what they do.
FWIW, 'Fighter' is a name mostly peculiar to D&D, IMHO, especially when 'Warrior' is the generic name that most RPGs use for this archetype. And "Mage" is likewise more typical than "Wizard" for a generic version of the magic-wielder. Not saying that I would change their, but it's not as if the wider culture necessarily adheres to D&D's naming conventions.

There appears to be a trend towards what I call Final Fantasy Tactics (FFT) style class branching. That is, starting with a small pool of generic classes and expanding into more complex archetypes as you gain levels. In theory, this is to control for choice paralysis since you only have limited options to start and gradually gain more options as you go. It, however, also requires a lot of pre-planning as if you don't think ahead, you could be locked out of the archetype you wanted (akin to how 3.5 prestige classes often required dedicated character mapping to maximize benefit).
Rob Schwalb's Shadow of the Demon Lord breaks classes into three tiers called "paths": Novice, Expert, and Master. There are four Novice paths: Warrior, Magician, Rogue, and Priest. There are more Expert paths, which are more specialized: e.g., Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Knight, Warlock, Wizard, etc. There are even more Master paths: e.g., Conjurer, Geomancer, Diplomat, etc. You can mix and match these as you want (e.g., Magician / Paladin / Gunslinger) without any prerequisites.

Subclass-replacing-niche-class has worked in some cases: no one is calling for an assassin base class, for example. However, there is still a dedicated group of people who want their warlords, psionics, avengers, or swordmages as base classes. If battlemaster or eldritch knight couldn't scratch the itch of warlord or swordmage fans, I can't imagine a subclass would do justice to barbarians, paladins, or rangers.
If the Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight aren't scratching the itch for Warlord or Swordmage fans, then maybe the problem is the Fighter base class and subclass interaction? I think one issue is that the Fighter chassis is not robust or flexible enough to accomodate these other archetypes. So it's not as if such proposals are naturally "as is" with no changes to things like the base class.

Lastly, people really want their "dude with sword casting magic" classes.
And?
 

If it's the latter... then remove Multiclassing entirely and go further in on subclasses that touch upon a secondary identity so that the story and fluff of the main class and its secondary theme can be built together and made for one cohesive narrative whole. Maybe then we'd stop seeing pointless multiclassing that occurs ONLY because the game mechanics between two classes line up via primary ability scores and thus you can get MOAR POWER by doing so... despite the narrative reason for that multiclass happening never getting touched upon (see: almost every single combination of the four CHA classes getting multiclassed out the wazoo.)
Sorry, but how is my sorcerer working to join a paladin order and finally making it not story based? Or making a pact with an eldritch god in desperation? Without dynamic multiclassing we lose that kind of character evolution. Not even subclasses are a proper substitute, because 1) they happen at set levels, which most of the time won't align with the plot 2) they are set in stone once taken, you only get one, and once the level where you pick one comes, you cannot change paths. This is what I call the "Reformed assassin problem". Having an assassin that doesn't want to kill anymore and wants to turn a new leaf, but due to not having dynamic multiclassing can only get better at killing people and can never learn anything that isn't dictated by that choice at first-third level. The whole setup is extremely inflexible, and demands I sacrifice my individual character narrative in favor of a platonic one that somehow would be better despite being a white room creation that is always the same despite what actually transpires in-game?
 

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