D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Voadam]

I agree with all of what you posted, except that there is a minor correction here. Quasi-deities is the category, not a specific type.

"Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges."

Edit: Nevermind. I see you were talking about how quasi-deities are used differently in other editions. Tired minds don't always get it early in the morning.

Yeah, Greyhawk's 1e quasi-deities (Daern, Murlynd, Keoghtom, Kelanaen, Tuerny, etc.) do not qualify as quasi-deities in 5e.

1e-4e titans are not titans in 5e.

Many demigods in 1e-3e are not demigods in 5e.

Many vestiges from the 3.5 Tome of Magic are not vestiges in 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

You're just making this up. It's got no textual foundation. I've quote the relevant texts over close to 20 years of publication. None of it supports this claim. It creates a picture of a land ruled by domineering priests who force obedience from those who don't obey willingly.


Again, you're just making this up. In Nyrond they pray to Heironeous. In Urnst (if I'm remembering rightly) they pray to Tritherion. Some warriors will obviously pray to St Cuthbert, others to Pholtus, others to Mayaheine.

Your claims have no textual basis, and in fact run contrary to what the texts state and imply.


And again, this is all just you making stuff up. Nowhere does the Greyhawk material say this. None of it suggests that people pray to Nerull to prolong life. He is the Foe of all Good and the Hater of Life. To prolong life people pray to nice gods like (again) St Cuthbert, or Pelor, perhaps Rao, or even Istus. Similarly when it comes to disease and famine.

Furthermore, it's contradictory. People pray to Incabulos to relieve disease, and Nerull to hold off death, you say, but no one prays to Iuz to ward off pain and oppression? Your own theory is incoherent!

I'm making it up as much as you are making up this "massive" worship of Iuz. Nothing in your "close to 20 years of publication" that you've quoted comes anywhere close to saying or implying that he has massive numbers of worshippers. At best you have "many" clerics, relative to the very small numbers of true clerics that gods have, and have shown that it's more worshippers than a "very few." That's it. That's all you have shown with all of your quotes.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, Greyhawk's 1e quasi-deities (Daern, Murlynd, Keoghtom, Kelanaen, Tuerny, etc.) do not qualify as quasi-deities in 5e.

1e-4e titans are not titans in 5e.

Many demigods in 1e-3e are not demigods in 5e.

Many vestiges from the 3.5 Tome of Magic are not vestiges in 5e.

Interestingly in 3e, Rank 0 Hero Deities are called quasi-deities, so the definition was different there as well.

"Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasideities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category."

They could not grant spells and included those who had mortal and god parents.

 

[Maxperson]

The appendix B list seems to be by its own definition lists of deities, even the Eberron other religions entries fall under Deities of Eberron and the elven ancestor spirits grant domains.

Appendix B's reference to acolytes on page 293 mentions only the gods:

"If you're playing a cleric or a character with the Acolyte background, decide which god your deity serves or served, and consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."

The acolyte description on page 127 says:

"Choose a god, a pantheon of gods, or some other quasi-divine being from among those listed in appendix B or those specified by your DM" so even if there are no quasi-divine beings on the Appendix B god lists, a DM can specify quasi-divine beings for an acolyte to worship.

It may be that it is just inconsistently written across these multiple interacting entries (acolyte description, Appendix B, DMG quasi-deities), but it can be worked out to be internally consistent if you want it to be.

Yeah, for sure it can be worked out by the DM. As I mentioned to Chaosmancer, if you are only familiar with 5e the method will probably be arbitrary, but if you're familiar with prior editions it will probably just be an extension of those gods on the Apendix B lists that were demigods.

 

[Mirtek]

Demigod is the same as it was.

Not at all. It was a mostly functional god in 1e, a fully functional god in 2e-3e and in 5e it became a non-functional god

She does her exarch work.

which was a terribly ill defined 4e term that could include anything from former intermediate gods to just the head groundkeeper of the largest tempel.

Basically any naned ally/servant they did not want to have as god in 4e but also did not want to just delete was parked in the exarch category.

Fear does not equate to worship. Not even close to 50% worships him.

But it's enough to get by for a great many full deities

 

[Maxperson]

Not at all. It was a mostly functional god in 1e, a fully functional god in 2e-3e and in 5e it became a non-functional god

By "same as it was" I mean that it doesn't have to be the offspring of a mortal and a god like the DMG says. We know from the lists in Apendix B of the PHB that there are exceptions to the DMG list. The Undying Court isn't a greater, less or quasi-deity. It's an exception, as are the three other examples in Eberron.

which was a terribly ill defined 4e term that could include anything from former intermediate gods to just the head groundkeeper of the largest tempel.

Basically any naned ally/servant they did not want to have as god in 4e but also did not want to just delete was parked in the exarch category.

Exarch just meant servant or helper to a higher deity. Those could be drawn from multiple sources, including Demigods. It wasn't ill defined from what I can see. It just didn't equate to demigod.

But it's enough to get by for a great many full deities

We don't really see that. At least not spelled out. We can say, "How does Nerull get to be so powerful?" and assume that fear does it. Or it could just as easily be what I posted above that @pemerton said that I made up. What I made up is just as likely as fear or the assumption that more than very few = almost everyone in an empire.

 

[Voadam]

Interestingly in 3e, Rank 0 Hero Deities are called quasi-deities, so the definition was different there as well.

"Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasideities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category."

They could not grant spells and included those who had mortal and god parents.

Yeah, slightly different.

In 1e WoG boxed set quasi-deities all but one were listed as worshipper's Alignment NA and the general entry stated they were "quite a number of characters that have risen above the status of hero, but who are not quite demi-gods."
Kelanen the Sword Lord was listed in the quasi-deities but also the only one termed a Hero-Deity, and the only one detailed who had Worshipper Alignment Any: "Kelanen, Sword Lord, is one of the very powerful individuals who might, or might not, be a true deity. Thus he is known as a ’Hero-Deity,’ and some who live by the sword pay him homage." It did not specify whether he could have clerics.

 

[Voadam]

Not at all. It was a mostly functional god in 1e, a fully functional god in 2e-3e and in 5e it became a non-functional god

What do you see as the differences in 1e and 2e for demigods?

In both they could fully grant up to 5th level cleric spells.

 

[Maxperson]

What do you see as the differences in 1e and 2e for demigods?

In both they could fully grant up to 5th level cleric spells.

Demigods could grant 9th level spells in 3e.

 

[Mirtek]

What do you see as the differences in 1e and 2e for demigods?

In both they could fully grant up to 5th level cleric spells.

Then I missremembered. I thought that in 2e they could already grant the full range of spells. But it only started in 3e